Open back vs. closed back amps

[DoVla]

I've been playing my Artcore for a while now through my Ibanez T25 solid
state amp witch has an open back. I manage to get a really sweet tone out of
it but I'm wondering if I would gain anything by closing the back with a
board. I often read about Jazz players using closed back amps so I'm
wondering what would be the difference in tone, since most amps I've seen in
stores (both tube and ss) have open backs.

[Pt]

Post by DoVla
I've been playing my Artcore for a while now through my Ibanez T25 solid
state amp witch has an open back. I manage to get a really sweet tone out of
it but I'm wondering if I would gain anything by closing the back with a
board. I often read about Jazz players using closed back amps so I'm
wondering what would be the difference in tone, since most amps I've seen in
stores (both tube and ss) have open backs.

This is a big subject.
I play through a Marshall half stack.
The closed back cabinet gave me problems because it was very
directional.
Who ever it was pointed at got it full force while someone 6 feet to
one side could hardly hear it.
I tried pointing it up, turning it around backwards, covering it with
a blanket...you name it.
Nothing worked.
So I opened the back up.
1/3 open.
This spread the sound around to where it was acceptable.
The bass and treble responses are fine but I lost much of the
midrange.
By adding EQ and/or some sort of preamp it will bring back some of the
mids.
I am satisfied with my sound now.

Pt

[p***@yahoo.com]

Post by DoVla
I've been playing my Artcore for a while now through my Ibanez T25 solid
state amp witch has an open back. I manage to get a really sweet tone out of
it but I'm wondering if I would gain anything by closing the back with a
board. I often read about Jazz players using closed back amps so I'm
wondering what would be the difference in tone, since most amps I've seen in
stores (both tube and ss) have open backs.

It's not like open-back cabinets were designed by audio engineers -
they were thrown together in the 40s and 50s as a way to put an amp and
speakers in a single cabinet while still providing for sufficient
airflow to cool the electronics. Tradition took over after that.

If you want to fuss with your amp, go ahead. But if you close the
back, do so in a way that allows air to get to the amplifier portion.
Something like put a shelf under the amp section and connect the
back-closing panel to that.

The construction of a speaker cabinet affects the tone by changing the
resonant frequency of the speaker-air coupling. There are lots of
texts around about how to build speaker cabinets. Broadly (**very**
broadly) speaking, a closed cabinet has a lower resonant frequency,
hence sounds bassier, than the same cabinet that has one side open to
the air. You can tune the response by using a port instead of just
leaving off a cabinet side, then tune the area of the port to adjust
the resonant frequency.

[j***@uiuc.edu]

I often read about Jazz players using closed back amps so I'm

Post by DoVla
ring what would be the difference in tone, since most amps I've seen in
stores (both tube and ss) have open back.

Jazz players use both. Most of the recordings made through the 50's
into the 60's had jazz guitarists playing through open back tube amps.

[DoVla]

Thanks for the replies

I think I have it figured out now. A closed back amp may sound bassier but
only if it were designed that way from the begining. There is no need to
"fix" the one I already got.

Post by DoVla
I've been playing my Artcore for a while now through my Ibanez T25 solid
state amp witch has an open back. I manage to get a really sweet tone out
of it but I'm wondering if I would gain anything by closing the back with
a board. I often read about Jazz players using closed back amps so I'm
wondering what would be the difference in tone, since most amps I've seen
in stores (both tube and ss) have open backs.

[Derek]

A compromise might be to pick up/borrow a closed back extension if your
amp allows for such. That would perhaps give you both sounds.

[Joey Goldstein]

Post by DoVla
I've been playing my Artcore for a while now through my Ibanez T25 solid
state amp witch has an open back. I manage to get a really sweet tone out of
it but I'm wondering if I would gain anything by closing the back with a
board.

You might, but you might not.
Your chances are better if you know what you're doing as opposed to not
knowing what you're doing, but you might get lucky anyway.

Post by DoVla
I often read about Jazz players using closed back amps so I'm
wondering what would be the difference in tone,

For me, what I notice sonically for jazz between open and closed-back
cabinets is, a difference in the attack characteristics as well as in
the bass response. And I think the two are related. There is more
oomph/thunk in the attack with a closed back cab because the note's
fundamental rings out louder than it does with an open-back cab. The
cabinet resonates with the attack. For me, since I play with a very dark
sound for jazz, this is a good thing. On the down-side, closed-back cabs
can also get boomy and out-of-control on the bass frequencies. Also,
they tend to be uni-directional so that sound is not disperesed as
evenly inot a room as it is with an open-back design.

For me, one of the guys who's sound I always wanted to be able to cop
was Ed Bickert. Most of his best sounding (IMO) recordings were done
thru a small Roland Cube 60 that has a closed back cabinet. I have never
been able to get that sound thru an open-back design, but with most
closed-back cabs it's pretty easy. Not all closed back cabs will sound
as good. Most folks here agree that for jazz the Raezor's Edge cabinets
(all closed-back) are unequaled. Putting a board across the back of your
Ibanez amp will not make it into an RE cabinet.

Lots of jazz guys used open-back cabs, lots use closed-back. Lots of
guys play tube amps, lots of guys play solid-state. Only you know what's
right for you.

Post by DoVla
since most amps I've seen in
stores (both tube and ss) have open backs.

Tube combo amps have to have an open-back design so the air can flow and
cool the tubes.
Tube heads often drive a closed back cabinet.
Solid state combo amps can go either way.

[Steven Rosenberg]

You know, Joey, it's funny, the Cube 60 has a closed back, but there is
a hole at the bottom where the cord comes out -- about 4 inches square
-- you can fit your hand in there (and store the power cord there,
too). That might have something to do with the sound. Or maybe not.
There's always that trademark Roland hiss.

The amp doesn't exactly have headroom for days -- if they made a Cube
200, I think I'd buy it. For the 60, the less you crank it, the better
it sounds.

Post by Joey Goldstein
For me, one of the guys who's sound I always wanted to be able to cop
was Ed Bickert. Most of his best sounding (IMO) recordings were done
thru a small Roland Cube 60 that has a closed back cabinet. I have never
been able to get that sound thru an open-back design, but with most
closed-back cabs it's pretty easy. Not all closed back cabs will sound
as good. Most folks here agree that for jazz the Raezor's Edge cabinets
(all closed-back) are unequaled. Putting a board across the back of your
Ibanez amp will not make it into an RE cabinet

[Joey Goldstein]

I suppose that hole might function as a port if it goes all the way
through to the cavity.

Post by Steven Rosenberg
You know, Joey, it's funny, the Cube 60 has a closed back, but there is
a hole at the bottom where the cord comes out -- about 4 inches square
-- you can fit your hand in there (and store the power cord there,
too). That might have something to do with the sound. Or maybe not.
There's always that trademark Roland hiss.
The amp doesn't exactly have headroom for days -- if they made a Cube
200, I think I'd buy it. For the 60, the less you crank it, the better
it sounds.

Post by Joey Goldstein
For me, one of the guys who's sound I always wanted to be able to cop
was Ed Bickert. Most of his best sounding (IMO) recordings were done
thru a small Roland Cube 60 that has a closed back cabinet. I have never
been able to get that sound thru an open-back design, but with most
closed-back cabs it's pretty easy. Not all closed back cabs will sound
as good. Most folks here agree that for jazz the Raezor's Edge cabinets
(all closed-back) are unequaled. Putting a board across the back of your
Ibanez amp will not make it into an RE cabinet

[Steven Rosenberg]

You can feel the speaker through it, so I suppose it is.

Post by Joey Goldstein
I suppose that hole might function as a port if it goes all the way
through to the cavity.

[Jack A. Zucker]

it's definitely designed as a ported cab.
--
Experience a revolutionary way to approach the instrument.
Introducing Sheets of Sound for Guitar
"Let the music govern the way you play guitar instead of the guitar
governing the way you play music!"

Check it out at:
http://www.sheetsofsound.net

Post by Steven Rosenberg
You can feel the speaker through it, so I suppose it is.

Post by Joey Goldstein
I suppose that hole might function as a port if it goes all the way
through to the cavity.

[Jack A. Zucker]

FYI Paul Bollenback used a pair of Roland Cubes at one time (in stereo) they
sounded great.

He was using a polytone the other night. With Defrancesco he was using a
twin but it may have been rented.
--
Experience a revolutionary way to approach the instrument.
Introducing Sheets of Sound for Guitar
"Let the music govern the way you play guitar instead of the guitar
governing the way you play music!"

Check it out at:
http://www.sheetsofsound.net

Post by Steven Rosenberg
You know, Joey, it's funny, the Cube 60 has a closed back, but there is
a hole at the bottom where the cord comes out -- about 4 inches square
-- you can fit your hand in there (and store the power cord there,
too). That might have something to do with the sound. Or maybe not.
There's always that trademark Roland hiss.
The amp doesn't exactly have headroom for days -- if they made a Cube
200, I think I'd buy it. For the 60, the less you crank it, the better
it sounds.

Post by Joey Goldstein
For me, one of the guys who's sound I always wanted to be able to cop
was Ed Bickert. Most of his best sounding (IMO) recordings were done
thru a small Roland Cube 60 that has a closed back cabinet. I have never
been able to get that sound thru an open-back design, but with most
closed-back cabs it's pretty easy. Not all closed back cabs will sound
as good. Most folks here agree that for jazz the Raezor's Edge cabinets
(all closed-back) are unequaled. Putting a board across the back of your
Ibanez amp will not make it into an RE cabinet

[DoVla]

I actually have Roland MicroCube and it didn't occur to me that it was a
closed back amp. Although it's an excellent little amp, it wasn't meant for
Jazz as it doesn't like the neck-pickup very much. It goes better with a
Telecaster bridge.

When you refer to the Cube 60, do you assume a stock speaker? I used one a
long time ago but it had Celestion inside. The guy who owned it said the
stock speaker wasn't good enough, but then again,he was a rock'n'roll
player.

Post by Joey Goldstein

Post by DoVla
I've been playing my Artcore for a while now through my Ibanez T25 solid
state amp witch has an open back. I manage to get a really sweet tone out of
it but I'm wondering if I would gain anything by closing the back with a
board.

You might, but you might not.
Your chances are better if you know what you're doing as opposed to not
knowing what you're doing, but you might get lucky anyway.

Post by DoVla
I often read about Jazz players using closed back amps so I'm
wondering what would be the difference in tone,

For me, what I notice sonically for jazz between open and closed-back
cabinets is, a difference in the attack characteristics as well as in
the bass response. And I think the two are related. There is more
oomph/thunk in the attack with a closed back cab because the note's
fundamental rings out louder than it does with an open-back cab. The
cabinet resonates with the attack. For me, since I play with a very dark
sound for jazz, this is a good thing. On the down-side, closed-back cabs
can also get boomy and out-of-control on the bass frequencies. Also,
they tend to be uni-directional so that sound is not disperesed as
evenly inot a room as it is with an open-back design.
For me, one of the guys who's sound I always wanted to be able to cop
was Ed Bickert. Most of his best sounding (IMO) recordings were done
thru a small Roland Cube 60 that has a closed back cabinet. I have never
been able to get that sound thru an open-back design, but with most
closed-back cabs it's pretty easy. Not all closed back cabs will sound
as good. Most folks here agree that for jazz the Raezor's Edge cabinets
(all closed-back) are unequaled. Putting a board across the back of your
Ibanez amp will not make it into an RE cabinet.
Lots of jazz guys used open-back cabs, lots use closed-back. Lots of
guys play tube amps, lots of guys play solid-state. Only you know what's
right for you.

Post by DoVla
since most amps I've seen in
stores (both tube and ss) have open backs.

Tube combo amps have to have an open-back design so the air can flow and
cool the tubes.
Tube heads often drive a closed back cabinet.
Solid state combo amps can go either way.
--
Joey Goldstein
http://www.joeygoldstein.com
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca

[Joey Goldstein]

I'm not sure what Ed used for a speaker.
Lorne Lofsky was still using a Cube 60 too the last time I saw him play.
He likes them so much that when his fell apart he had a head cabinet
made for it. He uses a separate speaker cabinet with it now. Not sure
what's in the speaker cab though.

Post by DoVla
I actually have Roland MicroCube and it didn't occur to me that it was a
closed back amp. Although it's an excellent little amp, it wasn't meant for
Jazz as it doesn't like the neck-pickup very much. It goes better with a
Telecaster bridge.
When you refer to the Cube 60, do you assume a stock speaker? I used one a
long time ago but it had Celestion inside. The guy who owned it said the
stock speaker wasn't good enough, but then again,he was a rock'n'roll
player.

Post by Joey Goldstein

Post by DoVla
I've been playing my Artcore for a while now through my Ibanez T25 solid
state amp witch has an open back. I manage to get a really sweet tone out of
it but I'm wondering if I would gain anything by closing the back with a
board.

You might, but you might not.
Your chances are better if you know what you're doing as opposed to not
knowing what you're doing, but you might get lucky anyway.

Post by DoVla
I often read about Jazz players using closed back amps so I'm
wondering what would be the difference in tone,

For me, what I notice sonically for jazz between open and closed-back
cabinets is, a difference in the attack characteristics as well as in
the bass response. And I think the two are related. There is more
oomph/thunk in the attack with a closed back cab because the note's
fundamental rings out louder than it does with an open-back cab. The
cabinet resonates with the attack. For me, since I play with a very dark
sound for jazz, this is a good thing. On the down-side, closed-back cabs
can also get boomy and out-of-control on the bass frequencies. Also,
they tend to be uni-directional so that sound is not disperesed as
evenly inot a room as it is with an open-back design.
For me, one of the guys who's sound I always wanted to be able to cop
was Ed Bickert. Most of his best sounding (IMO) recordings were done
thru a small Roland Cube 60 that has a closed back cabinet. I have never
been able to get that sound thru an open-back design, but with most
closed-back cabs it's pretty easy. Not all closed back cabs will sound
as good. Most folks here agree that for jazz the Raezor's Edge cabinets
(all closed-back) are unequaled. Putting a board across the back of your
Ibanez amp will not make it into an RE cabinet.
Lots of jazz guys used open-back cabs, lots use closed-back. Lots of
guys play tube amps, lots of guys play solid-state. Only you know what's
right for you.

Post by DoVla
since most amps I've seen in
stores (both tube and ss) have open backs.

Tube combo amps have to have an open-back design so the air can flow and
cool the tubes.
Tube heads often drive a closed back cabinet.
Solid state combo amps can go either way.
--
Joey Goldstein
http://www.joeygoldstein.com
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca

[Joey Goldstein]

And I've never really liked any of Celestion's speaker for jazz.

Post by DoVla
I actually have Roland MicroCube and it didn't occur to me that it was a
closed back amp. Although it's an excellent little amp, it wasn't meant for
Jazz as it doesn't like the neck-pickup very much. It goes better with a
Telecaster bridge.
When you refer to the Cube 60, do you assume a stock speaker? I used one a
long time ago but it had Celestion inside. The guy who owned it said the
stock speaker wasn't good enough, but then again,he was a rock'n'roll
player.

Post by Joey Goldstein

Post by DoVla
I've been playing my Artcore for a while now through my Ibanez T25 solid
state amp witch has an open back. I manage to get a really sweet tone out of
it but I'm wondering if I would gain anything by closing the back with a
board.

You might, but you might not.
Your chances are better if you know what you're doing as opposed to not
knowing what you're doing, but you might get lucky anyway.

Post by DoVla
I often read about Jazz players using closed back amps so I'm
wondering what would be the difference in tone,

For me, what I notice sonically for jazz between open and closed-back
cabinets is, a difference in the attack characteristics as well as in
the bass response. And I think the two are related. There is more
oomph/thunk in the attack with a closed back cab because the note's
fundamental rings out louder than it does with an open-back cab. The
cabinet resonates with the attack. For me, since I play with a very dark
sound for jazz, this is a good thing. On the down-side, closed-back cabs
can also get boomy and out-of-control on the bass frequencies. Also,
they tend to be uni-directional so that sound is not disperesed as
evenly inot a room as it is with an open-back design.
For me, one of the guys who's sound I always wanted to be able to cop
was Ed Bickert. Most of his best sounding (IMO) recordings were done
thru a small Roland Cube 60 that has a closed back cabinet. I have never
been able to get that sound thru an open-back design, but with most
closed-back cabs it's pretty easy. Not all closed back cabs will sound
as good. Most folks here agree that for jazz the Raezor's Edge cabinets
(all closed-back) are unequaled. Putting a board across the back of your
Ibanez amp will not make it into an RE cabinet.
Lots of jazz guys used open-back cabs, lots use closed-back. Lots of
guys play tube amps, lots of guys play solid-state. Only you know what's
right for you.

Post by DoVla
since most amps I've seen in
stores (both tube and ss) have open backs.

Tube combo amps have to have an open-back design so the air can flow and
cool the tubes.
Tube heads often drive a closed back cabinet.
Solid state combo amps can go either way.
--
Joey Goldstein
http://www.joeygoldstein.com
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca