Joe Pass on his heroin addiction

Post by SWOM GT
Are there any good interviews where Mr. Pass reflects on his heroin
addiction? I would like to know how Joe Pass was able to survive his
addiction to heroin, when many other great Jazz artists didn't.

He went to Synanon, and gave it up.
Bg

Joe Finn

2010-01-18 16:06:03 UTC

Post by Bg
He went to Synanon, and gave it up.
Bg

It seems like a residential program like Synanon is never at a loss for
customers. For some it's a revolving door. For Joe Pass it was exactly what
he needed. Many recovering addicts find that it's depressing to contemplate
the years they can never have back. I have not seen much in terms of
interviews from JP on this topic, but that's understandable. ...joe

--
Visit me on the web www.JoeFinn.net

Tim McNamara

2010-01-19 02:18:04 UTC

Post by SWOM GT
Are there any good interviews where Mr. Pass reflects on his heroin
addiction? I would like to know how Joe Pass was able to survive
his addiction to heroin, when many other great Jazz artists didn't.

He went to Synanon, and gave it up. Bg

It seems like a residential program like Synanon is never at a loss
for customers. For some it's a revolving door. For Joe Pass it was
exactly what he needed. Many recovering addicts find that it's
depressing to contemplate the years they can never have back. I have
not seen much in terms of interviews from JP on this topic, but
that's understandable. ...joe

He's mentioned it in some interviews, basically saying that he turned up
on their doorstep with everything he owned at the time: the clothes he
was wearing and a sack of onions (a sack of onions?). He no longer
owned a guitar at that point. Joe, for whatever reason, was able to
make a go of Synanon and turn his life around. I don't know if he
stayed straight the rest of his life or relapsed, I've not heard
anything about it one way or the other.

I just finished _One Long Tune_, the biography of Lenny Breau, last
night. An excellent read and seemingly very well researched. The
author really manages to take the reader on a part of the roller coaster
that was Lenny's life. In the end, though, it seems that what he didn't
survive was his last marriage rather than being killed by drugs and/or
alcohol. And jeez, the stuff he did- got a brand-new custom made Tom
Holmes guitar given to him by the luthier- I think it's the one in the
"Tal Farlow" movie- and went and hocked it a couple days later for $50.

I don't know what the deal is with heroin and jazz.

--
"I wear the cheese, it does not wear me."

Joe Finn

2010-01-19 02:57:16 UTC

Post by Tim McNamara

Post by SWOM GT
Are there any good interviews where Mr. Pass reflects on his heroin
addiction? I would like to know how Joe Pass was able to survive
his addiction to heroin, when many other great Jazz artists didn't.

He went to Synanon, and gave it up. Bg

It seems like a residential program like Synanon is never at a loss
for customers. For some it's a revolving door. For Joe Pass it was
exactly what he needed. Many recovering addicts find that it's
depressing to contemplate the years they can never have back. I have
not seen much in terms of interviews from JP on this topic, but
that's understandable. ...joe

I recall the "bag of onions" remark. He must have gone through hell to have
sunk to such a depth. His ability to reclaim his life and his career is an
inspiration ...joe

--
Visit me on the web www.JoeFinn.net

Tim McNamara

2010-01-20 00:47:34 UTC

Post by Tim McNamara

Post by SWOM GT
Are there any good interviews where Mr. Pass reflects on his
heroin addiction? I would like to know how Joe Pass was able to
survive his addiction to heroin, when many other great Jazz
artists didn't.

He went to Synanon, and gave it up. Bg

It seems like a residential program like Synanon is never at a
loss for customers. For some it's a revolving door. For Joe Pass
it was exactly what he needed. Many recovering addicts find that
it's depressing to contemplate the years they can never have back.
I have not seen much in terms of interviews from JP on this topic,
but that's understandable. ...joe

He's mentioned it in some interviews, basically saying that he
the clothes he was wearing and a sack of onions (a sack of
onions?). He no longer owned a guitar at that point. Joe, for
whatever reason, was able to make a go of Synanon and turn his life
around. I don't know if he stayed straight the rest of his life or
relapsed, I've not heard anything about it one way or the other.

I recall the "bag of onions" remark. He must have gone through hell
to have sunk to such a depth. His ability to reclaim his life and his
career is an inspiration ...joe

It really is, even over and above his astonishing musical skills. A
remarkable life.

--
"I wear the cheese, it does not wear me."

ScotGormley

2010-01-18 10:07:02 UTC

It's not something that Joe wanted to talk about very much. Several
times in interviews he mentioned how he lost or wasted more than 10
years on junk and that it was a terrible myth that drugs helped
creativity. His stint in rehab actually helped him develop his solo
guitar playing--he makes a subtle reference to this in his GIT video.

pmfan57

2010-01-18 14:46:19 UTC

Post by ScotGormley

According to, I think it was John Collins (one of Nat King Cole's
guitarists), Joe was about as amazing in the late forties, when he
must have been a teenager, as he was in the early 60's. So it's
pretty sad what a waste it was. But luckily for him and us, he did
overcome his problems and never looked back.

tombrown@jhu.edu

2010-01-18 21:55:32 UTC

Post by ScotGormley
His stint in rehab actually helped him develop his solo
guitar playing--he makes a subtle reference to this in his GIT video.

I think he might have been talking about his time in a Texas prison
where he did nothing but play guitar.

Chickenhead

2010-01-19 18:04:30 UTC

Kind of makes spending time in a Texas prison sound appealing. 10 hours a
day to practice and three square meals sounds like a vacation to me. Throw
in cigarettes and coffee, and I'm just about ready to sign up!

Post by ScotGormley
His stint in rehab actually helped him develop his solo
guitar playing--he makes a subtle reference to this in his GIT video.

I think he might have been talking about his time in a Texas prison
where he did nothing but play guitar.

c***@gmail.com

2017-07-31 02:56:44 UTC

Hey, I think prison might be the next wave in retirement plans. Might be better than a nursing home and just think of all the sex!

Post by Chickenhead
Kind of makes spending time in a Texas prison sound appealing. 10 hours a
day to practice and three square meals sounds like a vacation to me. Throw
in cigarettes and coffee, and I'm just about ready to sign up!
"

c***@claymoore.com

2010-01-20 09:50:27 UTC

Post by ScotGormley
His stint in rehab actually helped him develop his solo
guitar playing--he makes a subtle reference to this in his GIT video.

I think he might have been talking about his time in a Texas prison
where he did nothing but play guitar.

A.D. was an amazing guy with many talents but very humble and not
given to exaggeration or name dropping though he played with many of
the top musicians of the day. But one day he revealed to me, only half
joking, that the Virtuoso recording was his idea. He told me that
during their days at Synanon Joe would sit around playing solo guitar
for hours, and he suggested to Joe that he record an album of this
material, to which Joe supposedly replied "nah, who'd wanna listen to
this stuff?"

I also recall reading an article, perhaps in Down Beat or Guitar
Player, where they mentioned Joe getting back into heroin for a while
later in his career - 70's or 80's perhaps. This is not too surprising
really since a lot of people relapse back into whatever addiction they
have.

Good to see you guys still carrying the torch.

Clay Moore

Dan Adler

2010-01-20 11:45:23 UTC

Post by c***@claymoore.com

Post by ScotGormley
His stint in rehab actually helped him develop his solo
guitar playing--he makes a subtle reference to this in his GIT video.

I think he might have been talking about his time in a Texas prison
where he did nothing but play guitar.

Hi Tom, Scot, and everyone else,
I thought I'd drop by, saw this thread, and, well - here goes.
I've mentioned many times here my good friend and mentor drummer A.D.
Mannion, who played with Joe in NY when they were young, and later in
California when they were in Synanon together. This is the two of them
+ Gary Peacock and an unidentified pianist on a West Coast TV show
called Frankly http://youtu.be/q5KJhX2uDoM
A.D. was an amazing guy with many talents but very humble and not
given to exaggeration or name dropping though he played with many of
the top musicians of the day. But one day he revealed to me, only half
joking, that the Virtuoso recording was his idea. He told me that
during their days at Synanon Joe would sit around playing solo guitar
for hours, and he suggested to Joe that he record an album of this
material, to which Joe supposedly replied "nah, who'd wanna listen to
this stuff?"
I also recall reading an article, perhaps in Down Beat or Guitar
Player, where they mentioned Joe getting back into heroin for a while
later in his career - 70's or 80's perhaps. This is not too surprising
really since a lot of people relapse back into whatever addiction they
have.
Good to see you guys still carrying the torch.
Clay Moore

Hi Clay,

Great to see you here! I hope you're back to hang out a while!

What is amazing on the Synanon record is that ALL the players were so
great.

There is not a single solo by anyone on that album that is not a
melodic and harmonic masterpiece, the compositions are all beautiful
and sophisticated, and the arrangements are tight and executed
perfectly - and the sound and feel are consistent throughout the
album. Certainly does not sound like a bunch of rehabs amusing
themselves in their spare time. It's one of my favorite records of all
time.

I still can't play the intro to C.E.D. perfectly. Can anyone here? In
the Wolf Marshall book he fingers it in the E bar chord form at the
8th fret, but to me it sounds more reasonable to play in G form (pinky
on 8th and first finger bar on 5th). Wolf does a good job of playing
it the way he notated it, but I can't get it to sound right in that
position. The changes and form on that song are a pretty interesting
mix of modal and standard cycle progressions and Joe's intro, improv
behind the head, solo and outro are just out of this world.

-Dan
http://danadler.com

Joe Finn

2010-01-20 16:43:21 UTC

Post by ScotGormley
His stint in rehab actually helped him develop his solo
guitar playing--he makes a subtle reference to this in his GIT video.

I think he might have been talking about his time in a Texas prison
where he did nothing but play guitar.

Post by ScotGormley
Hi Tom, Scot, and everyone else,
I thought I'd drop by, saw this thread, and, well - here goes.
I've mentioned many times here my good friend and mentor drummer A.D.
Mannion, who played with Joe in NY when they were young, and later in
California when they were in Synanon together. This is the two of them
+ Gary Peacock and an unidentified pianist on a West Coast TV show
called Frankly Jazz. http://youtu.be/q5KJhX2uDoM
A.D. was an amazing guy with many talents but very humble and not
given to exaggeration or name dropping though he played with many of
the top musicians of the day. But one day he revealed to me, only half
joking, that the Virtuoso recording was his idea. He told me that
during their days at Synanon Joe would sit around playing solo guitar
for hours, and he suggested to Joe that he record an album of this
material, to which Joe supposedly replied "nah, who'd wanna listen to
this stuff?"
I also recall reading an article, perhaps in Down Beat or Guitar
Player, where they mentioned Joe getting back into heroin for a while
later in his career - 70's or 80's perhaps. This is not too surprising
really since a lot of people relapse back into whatever addiction they
have.
Good to see you guys still carrying the torch.
Clay Moore

Clay: Thank you for your input. I hope you are doing well and will check in
here more often. Bestly, ....joe

--
Visit me on the web www.JoeFinn.net

c***@claymoore.com

2010-01-20 18:02:20 UTC

Post by ScotGormley
His stint in rehab actually helped him develop his solo
guitar playing--he makes a subtle reference to this in his GIT video.

I think he might have been talking about his time in a Texas prison
where he did nothing but play guitar.

Post by ScotGormley
Hi Tom, Scot, and everyone else,
I thought I'd drop by, saw this thread, and, well - here goes.
I've mentioned many times here my good friend and mentor drummer A.D.
Mannion, who played with Joe in NY when they were young, and later in
California when they were in Synanon together. This is the two of them
+ Gary Peacock and an unidentified pianist on a West Coast TV show
called Frankly http://youtu.be/q5KJhX2uDoM
A.D. was an amazing guy with many talents but very humble and not
given to exaggeration or name dropping though he played with many of
the top musicians of the day. But one day he revealed to me, only half
joking, that the Virtuoso recording was his idea. He told me that
during their days at Synanon Joe would sit around playing solo guitar
for hours, and he suggested to Joe that he record an album of this
material, to which Joe supposedly replied "nah, who'd wanna listen to
this stuff?"
I also recall reading an article, perhaps in Down Beat or Guitar
Player, where they mentioned Joe getting back into heroin for a while
later in his career - 70's or 80's perhaps. This is not too surprising
really since a lot of people relapse back into whatever addiction they
have.
Good to see you guys still carrying the torch.
Clay Moore

Clay: Thank you for your input. I hope you are doing well and will check in
here more often. Bestly, ....joe

Thanks for the sentiments, Joe, but at present it's all I can do to
keep up with the things I'm paid to do and my duties as a dad,
husband, and homeowner. I woke up last night and couldn't sleep, so
that's why I dropped in. Good wishes and happy new year to everyone.

Clay

Gerry

2010-01-21 00:06:43 UTC

...it's all I can do to keep up with the things I'm paid to do and my
duties as a dad,
husband, and homeowner. I woke up last night and couldn't sleep, so
that's why I dropped in. Good wishes and happy new year to everyone.

Your voice is missed here.

--
Dogmatism kills jazz. Iconoclasm kills rock. Rock dulls scissors.

Des Higgins

2010-01-21 13:23:13 UTC

Post by Gerry

Your voice is missed here.
--

I agree; best of luck Clay!!

Joe Montgomery

2010-01-20 17:53:37 UTC

Post by c***@claymoore.com
I also recall reading an article, perhaps in Down Beat or Guitar
Player, where they mentioned Joe getting back into heroin for a while
later in his career - 70's or 80's perhaps. This is not too surprising
really since a lot of people relapse back into whatever addiction they
have.

My guess is that Heroin (using it, kicking it, and ultimately treating
the ramifications of having both used and kicked it) were never too
far from Joe's essence or conscience or core or whatever word you want
to use. The "wasted years" made him determined to use the rest of his
time determined and devoted to good lines and melodies, playing what
he heard in his musical heart and making music with his very close
inner circle of friends.

The ultimate irony to me is that toward the end of his life, heroin
once again played a pivotal role, in that his cancer of the liver was
most likely a tragic by-product of the addiction he so successfully
kicked.

So sorry I did not discover him and his music in earnest until about a
year after he died, especially since I was living in LA during the
Donte's Days. THAT would have been something.

So glad youtube, etc., has made Joe Pass accessible to those who are
seeking.

Joe (pass) Montgomery (wes)

c***@claymoore.com

2010-01-20 18:03:40 UTC

Post by Joe Montgomery

My guess is that Heroin (using it, kicking it, and ultimately treating
the ramifications of having both used and kicked it) were never too
far from Joe's essence or conscience or core or whatever word you want
to use. The "wasted years" made him determined to use the rest of his
time determined and devoted to good lines and melodies, playing what
he heard in his musical heart and making music with his very close
inner circle of friends.
The ultimate irony to me is that toward the end of his life, heroin
once again played a pivotal role, in that his cancer of the liver was
most likely a tragic by-product of the addiction he so successfully
kicked.
So sorry I did not discover him and his music in earnest until about a
year after he died, especially since I was living in LA during the
Donte's Days. THAT would have been something.
So glad youtube, etc., has made Joe Pass accessible to those who are
seeking.
Joe (pass) Montgomery (wes)

HI Joe,

Yeah, it is ironic, because A.D. died of liver cancer as well.

Clay

tom walls

2010-01-20 18:15:04 UTC

Post by c***@claymoore.com
HI Joe,
Yeah, it is ironic, because A.D. died of liver cancer as well.
Clay

Liver problems amongst substance abusers is not so much ironic as it
is predictable.

Tim McNamara

2010-01-21 05:20:51 UTC

In article

Post by Joe Montgomery

Post by c***@claymoore.com
I also recall reading an article, perhaps in Down Beat or Guitar
Player, where they mentioned Joe getting back into heroin for a
while later in his career - 70's or 80's perhaps. This is not too
surprising really since a lot of people relapse back into whatever
addiction they have.

At least among alcoholics, the standard estimate from AA is that about
50% will relapse at least once (the link below indicates 54%). I don't
know what the stats are for other substances but I would imagine are
very similar if not somewhat higher.

Here's some information about relapse that seems to have decent face
validity:

http://www.relapse-prevention.org/user-news.htm?id=163

Don Francks talks about drugs in the "Genius of Lenny Breau" documentary
and opines that people who have not been in the situation of feeling
unable to get from one second to the next don't really understand why
someone would do something so obviously self-destructive as take heroin.
I think the reasons people start are very individual and whether one
becomes addicted involves a lot of factors.

Post by Joe Montgomery
My guess is that Heroin (using it, kicking it, and ultimately
treating the ramifications of having both used and kicked it) were
never too far from Joe's essence or conscience or core or whatever
word you want to use. The "wasted years" made him determined to use
the rest of his time determined and devoted to good lines and
melodies, playing what he heard in his musical heart and making music
with his very close inner circle of friends.
The ultimate irony to me is that toward the end of his life, heroin
once again played a pivotal role, in that his cancer of the liver was
most likely a tragic by-product of the addiction he so successfully
kicked.

Well, if he had contracted hepatitis- particularly hepatitis C- that is
a possibility as a contributor. And the risk of contracting hepatitis
is very high as an IV drug user.

Post by Joe Montgomery
So sorry I did not discover him and his music in earnest until about
a year after he died, especially since I was living in LA during the
Donte's Days. THAT would have been something.
So glad youtube, etc., has made Joe Pass accessible to those who are
seeking.

YouTube may be one of the greatest resources for the promulgation of
jazz in decades. Maybe ever. There is an astonishing amount of very
fine jazz to be found there (and not a little crapola, too).

--
"I wear the cheese, it does not wear me."

Larry Grinnell

2010-01-21 04:52:14 UTC

A couple of years ago, Just Jazz Guitar did a special edition all about
Joe Pass. One of the stories recounted by an old friend was that Joe
did briefly return to heroin after his diagnosis with liver cancer,
taking the attitude, "why not?" The article went on to say that some
friends exercised some tough love and encouraged him, successfully, to
kick it again. In the end, I think it was his love of Ellen that gave
him the will to quit--I can only presume he didn't want to disappoint
her.

Larry Grinnell

In article

Post by c***@claymoore.com

Post by ScotGormley
His stint in rehab actually helped him develop his solo
guitar playing--he makes a subtle reference to this in his GIT video.

I think he might have been talking about his time in a Texas prison
where he did nothing but play guitar.

Hi Tom, Scot, and everyone else,
I thought I'd drop by, saw this thread, and, well - here goes.
I've mentioned many times here my good friend and mentor drummer A.D.
Mannion, who played with Joe in NY when they were young, and later in
California when they were in Synanon together. This is the two of them
+ Gary Peacock and an unidentified pianist on a West Coast TV show
called Frankly Jazz. http://youtu.be/q5KJhX2uDoM
A.D. was an amazing guy with many talents but very humble and not
given to exaggeration or name dropping though he played with many of
the top musicians of the day. But one day he revealed to me, only half
joking, that the Virtuoso recording was his idea. He told me that
during their days at Synanon Joe would sit around playing solo guitar
for hours, and he suggested to Joe that he record an album of this
material, to which Joe supposedly replied "nah, who'd wanna listen to
this stuff?"
I also recall reading an article, perhaps in Down Beat or Guitar
Player, where they mentioned Joe getting back into heroin for a while
later in his career - 70's or 80's perhaps. This is not too surprising
really since a lot of people relapse back into whatever addiction they
have.
Good to see you guys still carrying the torch.
Clay Moore

andy-uk

2010-01-18 16:14:51 UTC

Art Pepper was talks about his experiences of Synanon in his book
"straight life"... i don't know anything about Joe though.

b***@earthlink.net

2010-01-18 21:08:00 UTC

Check this out -- fantastic radio show, with clips from Joe's "Sounds
From Synanon" record.

http://indianapublicmedia.org/nightlights/resolution-jazz-from-rehab/

dwabeslim

2010-01-19 03:39:20 UTC

Joe used to play up here during the 50's[he also worked Las Vegas and
New Orleans where he shared a pad with writer and famous junkie
William S Burroughs.
He had several close friends among the musicians here and there are
lots of stories about his dope days and various stunts he pulled while
in town.
It's great that Synanon worked for him as he was there in the years
before it turned into a cult.
Greg

Graham

2010-01-19 12:18:56 UTC

Don't know much about Joe's experiences (except I read something where
he said he played in 'strip joints' during his lowest period - that
must have distracted the customers a bit!).

However I've read 3 biographies of jazz musicians with the same
problem.

Art Pepper - Straight Life: a gruelling read, but at least has a
reasonably upbeat ending - he was turned around by Synanon, happily
married and had a resurgence in his career.

Hampton Hawes - Raise Up Off Me: lightened by the fact that he was
able to view all his experiences with an amazing sense of humour.
Well worth reading. You feel that he retained his humanity a lot
better than most in this situation.

Chet Baker - Deep in a Dream: Utterly depressing. Seems that Chet
was a total maniac about drugs and had no redeeming features
whatsoever (apart from his music of course - and I am a Chet Baker
fan!).

As an example, one year before his death he had to do a tour of Japan
on prescription methadone only (the drug laws in Japan were too strict
even for Chet to take chances). He played brilliantly, threw no
tantrums, was calm the whole time, was nice to everybody in the band,
seemed to enjoy himself, etc. When the tour ended, somebody in the
band said to him 'Don't you think life is better this way?' Chet just
said 'No, I can't wait to get back to Europe and get totally f**cked
up, man!'

The one good thing about this book is that after reading it, no matter
how bad your life is, you will probably feel that it is a hell of a
lot better than Chet's!

Graham

www.youtube.com/grahambop

Keith Freeman

2010-01-19 12:46:42 UTC

Post by Graham
However I've read 3 biographies of jazz musicians with the same
problem.

Anita O'Day's autobiography High Times, Hard Times is also a fascinating
read.

-Keith

Clips, Portable Changes, tips etc.: www.keithfreemantrio.nl
e-mail: info AT keithfreemantrio DOT nl

Joe Finn

2010-01-19 14:41:24 UTC

Post by Graham
Don't know much about Joe's experiences (except I read something where
he said he played in 'strip joints' during his lowest period - that
must have distracted the customers a bit!).
However I've read 3 biographies of jazz musicians with the same
problem.
Art Pepper - Straight Life: a gruelling read, but at least has a
reasonably upbeat ending - he was turned around by Synanon, happily
married and had a resurgence in his career.
Hampton Hawes - Raise Up Off Me: lightened by the fact that he was
able to view all his experiences with an amazing sense of humour.
Well worth reading. You feel that he retained his humanity a lot
better than most in this situation.
Chet Baker - Deep in a Dream: Utterly depressing. Seems that Chet
was a total maniac about drugs and had no redeeming features
whatsoever (apart from his music of course - and I am a Chet Baker
fan!).
As an example, one year before his death he had to do a tour of Japan
on prescription methadone only (the drug laws in Japan were too strict
even for Chet to take chances). He played brilliantly, threw no
tantrums, was calm the whole time, was nice to everybody in the band,
seemed to enjoy himself, etc. When the tour ended, somebody in the
band said to him 'Don't you think life is better this way?' Chet just
said 'No, I can't wait to get back to Europe and get totally f**cked
up, man!'
The one good thing about this book is that after reading it, no matter
how bad your life is, you will probably feel that it is a hell of a
lot better than Chet's!
Graham

The heroin epidemic among jazz players in those days was a real tragedy.
This goes back to the Charlie Parker generation and beyond. Bird's musical
genius together with his storied reputation as a dope fiend set him up as a
role model that personified this strange duality. Everybody wanted to play
like him and it seems like a lot of players also wanted to emulate his drug
lifestyle.

At the same time there is a sense in which jazz should be viewed as a
cultural expression of an oppressed class. Social pathologies seem to go
hand in hand with the oppression, segregation, discrimination, etc. that was
commonplace in the world Bird grew up in. As integration took hold the
heroin problem in jazz seemed to ease at least a little. Now that jazz has
moved into the academic setting things have really changed. Most jazz
players are teaching now and this tends to impose what I will call a certain
stability. Heroin use among today's players is rare as a result.
......joe

--
Visit me on the web www.JoeFinn.net

Keith Freeman

2010-01-19 15:25:45 UTC

A major factor that should not be overlooked is the need - owing to the
ridiculously late opening hours of jazz clubs - to be able to stay awake
all night and perform and still do recording sessions in the daytime. Stan
Tracey, the father of British jazz piano, was very honest about this in a
documentary on his life.

-Keith

Clips, Portable Changes, tips etc.: www.keithfreemantrio.nl
e-mail: info AT keithfreemantrio DOT nl

Joe Finn

2010-01-19 21:51:46 UTC

Good point. That kind of scheduling has to be awfully tough. I've spoken to
some older guys that were around in those days. ....joe

--
Visit me on the web www.JoeFinn.net

tombrown@jhu.edu

2010-01-19 23:14:53 UTC

I don't think the timeline fits this hypothesis. Heroin is a feature
of bebop and later -- the early classic civil rights era. It wasn't an
issue for the first few decades of jazz.

Post by Keith Freeman
A major factor that should not be overlooked is the need - owing to the
ridiculously late opening hours of jazz clubs - to be able to stay awake
all night and perform and still do recording sessions in the daytime. Stan
Tracey, the father of British jazz piano, was very honest about this in a
documentary on his life.

Then why are downers -- alcohol, heroin-- the most common jazz drugs,
instead of uppers?

Joe Finn

2010-01-20 03:56:02 UTC

Post by Joe Finn
Social pathologies seem to go
hand in hand with the oppression, segregation, discrimination, etc.
that was commonplace in the world Bird grew up in. As integration took
hold the heroin problem in jazz seemed to ease at least a little.
I don't think the timeline fits this hypothesis. Heroin is a feature
of bebop and later -- the early classic civil rights era. It wasn't an
issue for the first few decades of jazz.

Hello Thomas: I see that you are [perhaps] inadvertently quoting my remarks.
I welcome your input. You are correct that heroin kicked in during the post
war era. It was pretty much unknown during the early years of the jazz
style. What I was trying to articulate was that Bird grew up as part of the
oppressed class and that addiction and other problems were endemic. When
Parker came of age heroin was one of the available options in nyc. Of
course, in his particular case, he is reputed to have binged/splurged on a
wide array of substances. ..............joe

--
Visit me on the web www.JoeFinn.net

Keith Freeman

2010-01-20 13:15:07 UTC

Post by ***@jhu.edu
Then why are downers -- alcohol, heroin-- the most common jazz drugs,
instead of uppers?

Stan Tracey said that he got hooked on heroin when his pusher didn't have
his usual upper.

Anita O'Day was an alcoholic when she met John Poole. She noticed he was
not drinking and asked him what the secret was. It was heroin. She tried
it, found it worked as an antidepressant and got hooked.

-Keith

Clips, Portable Changes, tips etc.: www.keithfreemantrio.nl
e-mail: info AT keithfreemantrio DOT nl

tom walls

2010-01-20 14:46:44 UTC

Post by Keith Freeman
Anita O'Day was an alcoholic when she met John Poole. She noticed he was
not drinking and asked him what the secret was. It was heroin. She tried
it, found it worked as an antidepressant and got hooked.
-Keith

Tangentially speaking, I recently watched the dvd "Anita O'Day - The
Life Of A Jazz Singer" and achieved the impossible -- I love her even
more! There is an interview with Bryant Gumbel(lightweight), where he
continually presses the substance abuse angle in the most judgmental
way, and she says "That's just the way IT WENT DOWN, BRYANT!" and gave
him a withering glare.

Gerry

2010-01-20 17:29:45 UTC

Post by tom walls

Tangent off the tangent. Our mysterious local participant Maj6 played
with Anita O'Day...

--
Dogmatism kills jazz. Iconoclasm kills rock. Rock dulls scissors.

335

2010-01-20 15:29:23 UTC

I don't think the timeline fits this hypothesis. Heroin is a feature
of bebop and later -- the early classic civil rights era. It wasn't an
issue for the first few decades of jazz.

Then why are downers -- alcohol, heroin-- the most common jazz drugs,
instead of uppers?

I've heard one story attributed to Dexter Gordon, perhaps apocryphal,
that heroin enabled him to tune out everything else and achieve
perfect concentration on the music.

Mark Cleary

2010-01-20 00:52:11 UTC

A major factor that should not be overlooked is the need - owing to the
ridiculously late opening hours of jazz clubs - to be able to stay awake
all night and perform and still do recording sessions in the daytime. Stan
Tracey, the father of British jazz piano, was very honest about this in a
documentary on his life.
-Keith
Clips, Portable Changes, tips etc.: www.keithfreemantrio.nl
e-mail: info AT keithfreemantrio DOT nl

That is no excuse to use drugs that will ruin your life. Many people
have difficult jobs and terrible hours that make life difficult, jazz
musician's have no claim on that end.

The one thing that I seem to pick up about Joe Pass was he did turn
around his life and he was a very humble person. He was a great player
but also a personality that was not centered on "himself". That to me
might be the difference. To admit to the problem and deal with it is
part of the "12 step process" that says there is a higher power than me
at work. Some just never seem to get past this point and why I do not
know.

Joe was a great player and he was aware of that for sure, but never did
let his ego get in the way. He seem to enjoy explaining to players how
he approached the guitar, and that he simply like to play melodies. He
went out of his way to give back to the guitar community what he knew.
He did not do this for money, fame, or personal gain, the hallmark of
someone capable of beating the struggle of addictions. Joe just like to
play the guitar and hear melodies he had in his head.

Thanks Joe!

--
Deacon Mark Cleary
Epiphany Roman Catholic Church

Joe Finn

2010-01-20 04:06:53 UTC

Social pathologies seem to go hand in hand with the oppression,
segregation, discrimination, etc.
that was commonplace in the world Bird grew up in. As integration took
hold the heroin problem in jazz seemed to ease at least a little.

A major factor that should not be overlooked is the need - owing to the
ridiculously late opening hours of jazz clubs - to be able to stay awake
all night and perform and still do recording sessions in the daytime.
Stan Tracey, the father of British jazz piano, was very honest about this
in a documentary on his life.
-Keith
Clips, Portable Changes, tips etc.: www.keithfreemantrio.nl
e-mail: info AT keithfreemantrio DOT nl

That is no excuse to use drugs that will ruin your life. Many people have
difficult jobs and terrible hours that make life difficult, jazz
musician's have no claim on that end.
The one thing that I seem to pick up about Joe Pass was he did turn around
his life and he was a very humble person. He was a great player but also a
personality that was not centered on "himself". That to me might be the
difference. To admit to the problem and deal with it is part of the "12
step process" that says there is a higher power than me at work. Some just
never seem to get past this point and why I do not know.
Joe was a great player and he was aware of that for sure, but never did
let his ego get in the way. He seem to enjoy explaining to players how he
approached the guitar, and that he simply like to play melodies. He went
out of his way to give back to the guitar community what he knew. He did
not do this for money, fame, or personal gain, the hallmark of someone
capable of beating the struggle of addictions. Joe just like to play the
guitar and hear melodies he had in his head.
Thanks Joe!

The humility that you mention makes the case of Joe Pass that much more of
an inspiration. His personal history stands as a monument to the triumph of
the human spirit. I am of the opinion that he saw *music* as "the higher
power". I think this is why we continue to remember him like we do. ...joe

p.s. The "Social pathologies" remarks were mine. Let's not blame that
nonsense on maestro Freeman!! 8-)

--
Visit me on the web www.JoeFinn.net

j***@gmail.com

2018-03-20 20:50:35 UTC

To stay awake all night and day Jazz musicians took copious amount of Heroin, Pot and Alcohol to stay awake?!?!?!

Sorry, Keith, but you clearly don't understand the basics of recreational drugs use. The most abused drugs in that era of jazz were things that made you sleepy,...not things that kept you awake.

Gerry

2018-03-20 23:05:46 UTC

Post by j***@gmail.com

To stay awake all night and day Jazz musicians took copious amount of
Heroin, Pot and Alcohol to stay awake?!?!?!
Sorry, Keith, but you clearly don't understand the basics of
recreational drugs use. The most abused drugs in that era of jazz were
things that made you sleepy,...not things that kept you awake.

FYI: Both posts of this worked.

I don't know what Keith said in context 8 years ago, and I certainly
don't claim to fully understand the many reasons or impulses that
direct people to drugs. I do know that some people take "make you
sleepy" drugs in order to counter the "make you wakey" drugs, such as
drinking coffee, benzedrine and [other], in order to work through the
night, or long/late hours.

As is frequently the case, it's not a single element to be viewed in a
single situation, but a composite.

hodge12

2018-03-27 13:32:23 UTC

many musicians passed through this place:
http://www.narcoticfarm.com/t2_book.html

van

2018-03-27 22:57:20 UTC

Post by hodge12
http://www.narcoticfarm.com/t2_book.html

That sounds like a cool book; I just requested it from my local library. Thanks!

j***@gmail.com

2018-03-20 21:07:52 UTC

To stay awake all night and all day Jazz musicians "needed" to take copious amount of Heroin, Pot and Alcohol?!?!?!

Sorry, Keith, but you clearly don't understand the basics of recreational drugs use. The most abused drugs in that era of jazz were things that made you sleepy,...not things that kept you awake.

j***@gmail.com

2017-07-10 19:22:01 UTC

As we take Joe Pass's inventory and "tsk tsk" to ourselves in after-the-fact judgment, while opiates and heroine addiction are popularly considered "the worst of the worst," I would take the typical junkie over the typical drunk in the practice room or bandstand nearly any day. While being "dope sick' is no joke, and in order to get a "fix" someone like Charlie Parker would simply pawn his horn expecting his band mates to come up with the money (and further that many junkies are in no way the talent of a Parker, Davis, or Pass), there is a certainty and a quiet that opiate users have, as well as a calmness and an avoidance of discord, which drunks literally gravitate to seemingly in order to further contribute.

Heroine takes away pain. For someone who does nothing but make bar chords for 6-8 hours a day, heroine may allow that person to continue working as a musician, whereas any other solution would be to stop playing-- which may not be an option. Heroine is typically a drug taken in isolation, rather than a party drug. It allows abstract thinking away from physical pain, even in circumstances of extreme depravation or poverty.

While I do not argue for the use of drugs, if one needed to meet Parker or Davis, junk would be one way to get their attention and keep it long enough to get the important musical questions answered.

How many would give up cigarette smoking in order to keep playing music!?! Very few.

Finally, I know of no Texas prison that allows guitar playing of any type, as the strings can be used as weapons. I believe this is an urban myth, and the suggestion that Joe played in Synanon sounds more likely than in prison. However, pen and paper are allowed in prison, and he could have thought and written music away from an instrument while inside.

Tim McNamara

2017-07-12 04:45:21 UTC

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Post by j***@gmail.com

As we take Joe Pass's inventory and "tsk tsk" to ourselves in
after-the-fact judgment...

You are replying to a 7 1/2 year old question, presumably because of the
awfulness of the Google Groups interface for Usenet newsgroups.

Joe was a junkie; he publicly referred to those years- about 15 years,
IIRC- as wasted time. Fortunately for him and for all of us he was able
to get some help, kick the habit and have decades of wonderful
music-making. Synanon was a weird program that got weirder and creepier
(you can read the history elsewhere) but it did help some folks like Joe
and other jazz musicians. The "Sounds of Synanon" album is a testament
to that.

Some folks refer to drugs as a two edged sword, but the negative side of
many/most forms of hard drugs (and alcohol) is far sharper than the
positive side. Heroin and alcoholism were scourges for decades of jazz
musicians. There was a stretch where the scourges shifted to alcohol
and cocaine, but I would not be surprised if heroin is making a comeback
among jazz musicians like it is in all other parts of American society.

2017-07-12 14:44:51 UTC

Post by Tim McNamara
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Post by j***@gmail.com

As we take Joe Pass's inventory and "tsk tsk" to ourselves in
after-the-fact judgment...

You are replying to a 7 1/2 year old question, presumably because of the
awfulness of the Google Groups interface for Usenet newsgroups.
Joe was a junkie; he publicly referred to those years- about 15 years,
IIRC- as wasted time. Fortunately for him and for all of us he was able
to get some help, kick the habit and have decades of wonderful
music-making. Synanon was a weird program that got weirder and creepier
(you can read the history elsewhere) but it did help some folks like Joe
and other jazz musicians. The "Sounds of Synanon" album is a testament
to that.
Some folks refer to drugs as a two edged sword, but the negative side of
many/most forms of hard drugs (and alcohol) is far sharper than the
positive side. Heroin and alcoholism were scourges for decades of jazz
musicians. There was a stretch where the scourges shifted to alcohol
and cocaine, but I would not be surprised if heroin is making a comeback
among jazz musicians like it is in all other parts of American society.

All stimulants are lurking and inevitable depressants. Escaping always has a price tag.

Tim McNamara

2017-07-12 22:46:37 UTC

Post by TD
All stimulants are lurking and inevitable depressants. Escaping always has a price tag.

"Lurking and inevitable." I like that phrasing.

Nil

2017-07-15 05:13:11 UTC

Post by Tim McNamara
Joe was a junkie; he publicly referred to those years- about 15
years, IIRC- as wasted time. Fortunately for him and for all of
us he was able to get some help, kick the habit and have decades
of wonderful music-making. Synanon was a weird program that got
weirder and creepier (you can read the history elsewhere) but it
did help some folks like Joe and other jazz musicians. The
"Sounds of Synanon" album is a testament to that.

I went on a field trip to the Synanon facility, I guess in the late
'60s or early '70s. It was sponsored either by my school, or my Boy
Scout troop, or maybe by the YMCA, I can't remember which. It seemed to
be more of a PR exercise on their part than a learning experience for
us. It wasn't made clear what the purpose of the place was, though I
was vaguely aware it was a place for people with "problems" to live
communally. It had a vibe somewhere between a hospital and a jail and
was painted with thick globby institutional green paint everywhere and
bars on the windows. They never mentioned their illustrious musical
guests.

joel fass

2017-09-17 17:00:29 UTC