Discussion:
pat metheney on Kenny G
(too old to reply)
cminor7b5
2005-08-01 00:42:35 UTC
Permalink
Apparently Pat is NOT a big Kenny G fan.

Pat Metheney on Kenny G.
Kenny G is not a musician I really had much of an opinion about at all
until recently. There was not much about the way he played that
interested me one way or the other either live or on records.
I first heard him a number of years ago playing as a sideman with Jeff
Lorber when they opened a concert for my band. My impression was that
he was someone who had spent a fair amount of time listening to the
more pop oriented sax players of that time, like Grover Washington or
David Sanborn, but was not really an advanced player, even in that
style. He had major rhythmic problems and his harmonic and melodic
vocabulary was extremely limited, mostly to pentatonic based and
blues-lick derived patterns, and he basically exhibited only a
rudimentary understanding of how to function as a professional soloist
in an ensemble - Lorber was basically playing him off the bandstand in
terms of actual music.
But he did show a knack for connecting to the basest impulses of the
large crowd by deploying his two or three most effective licks (holding
long notes and playing fast runs - never mind that there were lots of
harmonic clams in them) at the key moments to elicit a powerful crowd
reaction (over and over again). The other main thing I noticed was that
he also, as he does to this day, played horribly out of tune -
consistently sharp.

Of course, I am aware of what he has played since, the success it has
had, and the controversy that has surrounded him among musicians and
serious listeners. This controversy seems to be largely fueled by the
fact that he sells an enormous amount of records while not being
anywhere near a really great player in relation to the standards that
have been set on his instrument over the past sixty or seventy years.
And honestly, there is no small amount of envy involved from musicians
who see one of their fellow players doing so well financially,
especially when so many of them who are far superior as improvisors and
musicians in general have trouble just making a living. There must be
hundreds, if not thousands of sax players around the world who are
simply better improvising musicians than Kenny G on his chosen
instruments. It would really surprise me if even he disagreed with that
statement.

Having said that, it has gotten me to thinking lately why so many jazz
musicians (myself included, given the right "bait" of a question, as I
will explain later) and audiences have gone so far as to say that what
he is playing is not even jazz at all. Stepping back for a minute, if
we examine the way he plays, especially if one can remove the actual
improvising from the often mundane background environment that it is
delivered in, we see that his saxophone style is in fact clearly in the
tradition of the kind of playing that most reasonably objective
listeners WOULD normally quantify as being jazz. It's just that as jazz
or even as music in a general sense, with these standards in mind, it
is simply not up to the level of playing that we historically associate
with professional improvising musicians. So, lately I have been
advocating that we go ahead and just include it under the word jazz -
since pretty much of the rest of the world OUTSIDE of the jazz
community does anyway - and let the chips fall where they may.

And after all, why he should be judged by any other standard, why he
should be exempt from that that all other serious musicians on his
instrument are judged by if they attempt to use their abilities in an
improvisational context playing with a rhythm section as he does? He
SHOULD be compared to John Coltrane or Wayne Shorter, for instance, on
his abilities (or lack thereof) to play the soprano saxophone and his
success (or lack thereof) at finding a way to deploy that instrument in
an ensemble in order to accurately gauge his abilities and put them in
the context of his instrument's legacy and potential.

As a composer of even eighth note based music, he SHOULD be compared to
Herbie Hancock, Horace Silver or even Grover Washington. Suffice it to
say, on all above counts, at this point in his development, he wouldn't
fare well.

But, like I said at the top, this relatively benign view was all "until
recently".

Not long ago, Kenny G put out a recording where he overdubbed himself
on top of a 30+ year old Louis Armstrong record, the track "What a
Wonderful World". With this single move, Kenny G became one of the few
people on earth I can say that I really can't use at all - as a man,
for his incredible arrogance to even consider such a thing, and as a
musician, for presuming to share the stage with the single most
important figure in our music.

This type of musical necrophilia - the technique of overdubbing on the
preexisting tracks of already dead performers - was weird when Natalie
Cole did it with her dad on "Unforgettable" a few years ago, but it was
her dad. When Tony Bennett did it with Billie Holiday it was bizarre,
but we are talking about two of the greatest singers of the 20th
century who were on roughly the same level of artistic accomplishment.
When Larry Coryell presumed to overdub himself on top of a Wes
Montgomery track, I lost a lot of the respect that I ever had for him -
and I have to seriously question the fact that I did have respect for
someone who could turn out to have such unbelievably bad taste and be
that disrespectful to one of my personal heroes.

But when Kenny G decided that it was appropriate for him to defile the
music of the man who is probably the greatest jazz musician that has
ever lived by spewing his lame-ass, jive, pseudo bluesy, out-of-tune,
noodling, wimped out, fucked up playing all over one of the great
Louis's tracks (even one of his lesser ones), he did something that I
would not have imagined possible. He, in one move, through his
unbelievably pretentious and calloused musical decision to embark on
this most cynical of musical paths, shit all over the graves of all the
musicians past and present who have risked their lives by going out
there on the road for years and years developing their own music
inspired by the standards of grace that Louis Armstrong brought to
every single note he played over an amazing lifetime as a musician. By
disrespecting Louis, his legacy and by default, everyone who has ever
tried to do something positive with improvised music and what it can
be, Kenny G has created a new low point in modern culture - something
that we all should be totally embarrassed about - and afraid of. We
ignore this, "let it slide", at our own peril.

His callous disregard for the larger issues of what this crass gesture
implies is exacerbated by the fact that the only reason he possibly
have for doing something this inherently wrong (on both human and
musical terms) was for the record sales and the money it would bring.

Since that record came out - in protest, as insignificant as it may be,
I encourage everyone to boycott Kenny G recordings, concerts and
anything he is associated with. If asked about Kenny G, I will dissmis
him and his music with the same passion that is in evidence in this
little essay.

Normally, I feel that musicians all have a hard enough time, regardless
of their level, just trying to play good and don't really benefit from
public criticism, particularly from their fellow players. but, this is
different.

There ARE some things that are sacred - and amongst any musician that
has ever attempted to address jazz at even the most basic of levels,
Louis Armstrong and his music is hallowed ground. To ignore this
trespass is to agree that NOTHING any musician has attempted to do with
their life in music has any intrinsic value - and I refuse to do that.
(I am also amazed that there HASN'T already been an outcry against this
among music critics - where ARE they on this?????!?!?!?!, magazines,
etc.). Everything I said here is exactly the same as what I would say
to Gorelick if I ever saw him in person. and if I ever DO see him
anywhere, at any function - he WILL get a piece of my mind and (maybe a
guitar wrapped around his head.)
Greg West
2005-08-01 01:55:25 UTC
Permalink
Great reply. For whatever reason, I have a visceral, negative reaction
to Kenny G's sound. I have always had very "open" ears, being a fan of
all sorts of music from different countries and cultures. I have a
wide tolerance for and interest in all sorts of musical sounds.
Somehow, Kenny G just hits me as something incredibly offensive.
Thanks for putting those feelings into words better than I could have
ever done.

Greg
ReverendBass
2005-08-01 02:37:49 UTC
Permalink
Pat Metheny sucks and is incredibly overrated. I saw his band on PBS
Saturday and I nearly fell asleep. His facial expressions are comedic and
his playing was uninspiring.
Joey Goldstein
2005-08-01 03:55:05 UTC
Permalink
Do you have any clips of your own playing that I can hear?
Post by ReverendBass
Pat Metheny sucks and is incredibly overrated. I saw his band on PBS
Saturday and I nearly fell asleep. His facial expressions are comedic and
his playing was uninspiring.
--
Joey Goldstein
http://www.joeygoldstein.com
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca
Adam Bravo
2005-08-01 22:07:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joey Goldstein
Do you have any clips of your own playing that I can hear?
Post by ReverendBass
Pat Metheny sucks and is incredibly overrated. I saw his band on PBS
Saturday and I nearly fell asleep. His facial expressions are comedic and
his playing was uninspiring.
For a minute, I thought you were replying to Metheny's essay...
t***@jhu.edu
2005-08-01 04:18:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by ReverendBass
Pat Metheny sucks and is incredibly overrated. I saw his band on PBS
Saturday and I nearly fell asleep. His facial expressions are comedic and
his playing was uninspiring.
I agree with everything you say, except for the first part, and the
last part. But that middle part, man, I was totally with you all the
way on that one.
markr
2005-08-01 04:37:25 UTC
Permalink
The PMG may not be your thing; I'd say check it out live before you
make an assertion like that. As for being over-rated, PM has recorded
with Burton, Brecker, Corea, Pastorius, Haynes, Mitchell, Holland and a
much longer list of people I can't think of right now. I guess a lot of
musicians who don't know much have really been fooled by this guy.
ReverendBass
2005-08-01 22:47:26 UTC
Permalink
OK< so I exaggerated

I just cannot stand the guy nor does my ear
Joey Goldstein
2005-08-01 22:49:21 UTC
Permalink
Well that's different than saying he "sucks".

I can't stand Wagner or does his music, but he certainly doesn't suck.
Post by ReverendBass
OK< so I exaggerated
I just cannot stand the guy nor does my ear
--
Joey Goldstein
http://www.joeygoldstein.com
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca
mark (sixstringtheoryDOTcom)
2005-08-01 05:18:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by ReverendBass
Pat Metheny sucks and is incredibly overrated. I saw his band on PBS
Saturday and I nearly fell asleep. His facial expressions are comedic and
his playing was uninspiring.
Kenny G! Welcome to the group, man!
Eugel Yeo
2005-08-01 08:12:09 UTC
Permalink
Ha ha. That's really funny!
Post by mark (sixstringtheoryDOTcom)
Post by ReverendBass
Pat Metheny sucks and is incredibly overrated. I saw his band on PBS
Saturday and I nearly fell asleep. His facial expressions are comedic and
his playing was uninspiring.
Kenny G! Welcome to the group, man!
mylesgtr
2005-08-01 08:35:50 UTC
Permalink
Ok...I usually keep my mouth shut, but this is such bullshit I can't
help it.
Post by ReverendBass
Pat Metheny sucks and is incredibly overrated.
Yep...you're right...thanks for helping me see the light.

Please post a clip of yourself blowing over Lakes...or the bridge to
Question and Answer...or the bridge to Song for Bilbao. Or how 'bout
this...write a tune like Unity Village. Or maybe try to get Charlie
Haden, Bill Stewart, Mike Brecker, Kenny Garrett, Herbie Hancock,
etc,etc,etc to record with you. Did you teach at Berklee at 18????
Didn't think so. Did you influence an entire generation of guitarists?
I'm guessing not. Did Hal Leonard publish a book of your
compositions? Can you play Go Get It in duo with Antonio Sanchez at
350 bpm and not sound like AN INTERNET GEEK WANKING away? Jesus F'ing
Christ.
Post by ReverendBass
I saw his band on PBS
Saturday and I nearly fell asleep.
There are a LOT of guitarists mentioned over and over in this group
with total reverie that I don't dig. But do I feel the need to talk
about it? No. And if I did, I would give a CONCRETE REASON...not this
Post by ReverendBass
His facial expressions are comedic
Ahhh...there we are...his facial expressions are comedic. That has a
lot to do with his musical ability doesn't it? He can wear a fucking
pink bunny suit for all I care... I didn't know that a cool facial
expression was a pre-requisite for playing well.
Post by ReverendBass
and his playing was uninspiring.
ok...there are players I don't find inspiring, but nobody cares what I
think.

Sorry, but Pat's one of my biggest personal heroes. If you're going to
criticize him you should be able to back it up.

Myles

PS...that article has been around for at least 4 years and it was
explained that Pat never meant for that to get published all over the
internet.
ReverendBass
2005-08-01 22:48:27 UTC
Permalink
I can back it up--It is called Free Speech
John B
2005-08-02 02:16:08 UTC
Permalink
or maybe just bs
Post by ReverendBass
I can back it up--It is called Free Speech
Max Smith
2005-08-02 20:29:24 UTC
Permalink
Having the freedom to speak has nothing to do with backing up what you
say, or whether it has any truth or validity.

You have the freedom to say that water will fly up into the air when
you pour it from a glass, but the freedom to say it (and the facts)
will not back you up.

To me, a person who sucks is someone who fails abysmally to reach his
aims - I can't see how this applies to Pat, since he seems to play the
music he wants to play expertly.

Better to leave it at "I don't enjoy it".

Max S.
Eugel Yeo
2005-08-01 02:48:35 UTC
Permalink
Hmmm...

I must be the only guy around who hasnt heard Kenny G's desecration of Louis
Armstrong's work.
But, for that matter, I haven't heard much of Kenny's music at all.

However, after Pat's tirade (and I'm assuming it's genuine), I'm dying to
hear the piece.
But to buy the CD would be endorsing Kenny's "crass gesture".

A dilemma indeed.
Post by cminor7b5
Apparently Pat is NOT a big Kenny G fan.
Pat Metheney on Kenny G.
Kenny G is not a musician I really had much of an opinion about at all
until recently. There was not much about the way he played that
interested me one way or the other either live or on records.
I first heard him a number of years ago playing as a sideman with Jeff
Lorber when they opened a concert for my band. My impression was that
he was someone who had spent a fair amount of time listening to the
more pop oriented sax players of that time, like Grover Washington or
David Sanborn, but was not really an advanced player, even in that
style. He had major rhythmic problems and his harmonic and melodic
vocabulary was extremely limited, mostly to pentatonic based and
blues-lick derived patterns, and he basically exhibited only a
rudimentary understanding of how to function as a professional soloist
in an ensemble - Lorber was basically playing him off the bandstand in
terms of actual music.
But he did show a knack for connecting to the basest impulses of the
large crowd by deploying his two or three most effective licks (holding
long notes and playing fast runs - never mind that there were lots of
harmonic clams in them) at the key moments to elicit a powerful crowd
reaction (over and over again). The other main thing I noticed was that
he also, as he does to this day, played horribly out of tune -
consistently sharp.
Of course, I am aware of what he has played since, the success it has
had, and the controversy that has surrounded him among musicians and
serious listeners. This controversy seems to be largely fueled by the
fact that he sells an enormous amount of records while not being
anywhere near a really great player in relation to the standards that
have been set on his instrument over the past sixty or seventy years.
And honestly, there is no small amount of envy involved from musicians
who see one of their fellow players doing so well financially,
especially when so many of them who are far superior as improvisors and
musicians in general have trouble just making a living. There must be
hundreds, if not thousands of sax players around the world who are
simply better improvising musicians than Kenny G on his chosen
instruments. It would really surprise me if even he disagreed with that
statement.
Having said that, it has gotten me to thinking lately why so many jazz
musicians (myself included, given the right "bait" of a question, as I
will explain later) and audiences have gone so far as to say that what
he is playing is not even jazz at all. Stepping back for a minute, if
we examine the way he plays, especially if one can remove the actual
improvising from the often mundane background environment that it is
delivered in, we see that his saxophone style is in fact clearly in the
tradition of the kind of playing that most reasonably objective
listeners WOULD normally quantify as being jazz. It's just that as jazz
or even as music in a general sense, with these standards in mind, it
is simply not up to the level of playing that we historically associate
with professional improvising musicians. So, lately I have been
advocating that we go ahead and just include it under the word jazz -
since pretty much of the rest of the world OUTSIDE of the jazz
community does anyway - and let the chips fall where they may.
And after all, why he should be judged by any other standard, why he
should be exempt from that that all other serious musicians on his
instrument are judged by if they attempt to use their abilities in an
improvisational context playing with a rhythm section as he does? He
SHOULD be compared to John Coltrane or Wayne Shorter, for instance, on
his abilities (or lack thereof) to play the soprano saxophone and his
success (or lack thereof) at finding a way to deploy that instrument in
an ensemble in order to accurately gauge his abilities and put them in
the context of his instrument's legacy and potential.
As a composer of even eighth note based music, he SHOULD be compared to
Herbie Hancock, Horace Silver or even Grover Washington. Suffice it to
say, on all above counts, at this point in his development, he wouldn't
fare well.
But, like I said at the top, this relatively benign view was all "until
recently".
Not long ago, Kenny G put out a recording where he overdubbed himself
on top of a 30+ year old Louis Armstrong record, the track "What a
Wonderful World". With this single move, Kenny G became one of the few
people on earth I can say that I really can't use at all - as a man,
for his incredible arrogance to even consider such a thing, and as a
musician, for presuming to share the stage with the single most
important figure in our music.
This type of musical necrophilia - the technique of overdubbing on the
preexisting tracks of already dead performers - was weird when Natalie
Cole did it with her dad on "Unforgettable" a few years ago, but it was
her dad. When Tony Bennett did it with Billie Holiday it was bizarre,
but we are talking about two of the greatest singers of the 20th
century who were on roughly the same level of artistic accomplishment.
When Larry Coryell presumed to overdub himself on top of a Wes
Montgomery track, I lost a lot of the respect that I ever had for him -
and I have to seriously question the fact that I did have respect for
someone who could turn out to have such unbelievably bad taste and be
that disrespectful to one of my personal heroes.
But when Kenny G decided that it was appropriate for him to defile the
music of the man who is probably the greatest jazz musician that has
ever lived by spewing his lame-ass, jive, pseudo bluesy, out-of-tune,
noodling, wimped out, fucked up playing all over one of the great
Louis's tracks (even one of his lesser ones), he did something that I
would not have imagined possible. He, in one move, through his
unbelievably pretentious and calloused musical decision to embark on
this most cynical of musical paths, shit all over the graves of all the
musicians past and present who have risked their lives by going out
there on the road for years and years developing their own music
inspired by the standards of grace that Louis Armstrong brought to
every single note he played over an amazing lifetime as a musician. By
disrespecting Louis, his legacy and by default, everyone who has ever
tried to do something positive with improvised music and what it can
be, Kenny G has created a new low point in modern culture - something
that we all should be totally embarrassed about - and afraid of. We
ignore this, "let it slide", at our own peril.
His callous disregard for the larger issues of what this crass gesture
implies is exacerbated by the fact that the only reason he possibly
have for doing something this inherently wrong (on both human and
musical terms) was for the record sales and the money it would bring.
Since that record came out - in protest, as insignificant as it may be,
I encourage everyone to boycott Kenny G recordings, concerts and
anything he is associated with. If asked about Kenny G, I will dissmis
him and his music with the same passion that is in evidence in this
little essay.
Normally, I feel that musicians all have a hard enough time, regardless
of their level, just trying to play good and don't really benefit from
public criticism, particularly from their fellow players. but, this is
different.
There ARE some things that are sacred - and amongst any musician that
has ever attempted to address jazz at even the most basic of levels,
Louis Armstrong and his music is hallowed ground. To ignore this
trespass is to agree that NOTHING any musician has attempted to do with
their life in music has any intrinsic value - and I refuse to do that.
(I am also amazed that there HASN'T already been an outcry against this
among music critics - where ARE they on this?????!?!?!?!, magazines,
etc.). Everything I said here is exactly the same as what I would say
to Gorelick if I ever saw him in person. and if I ever DO see him
anywhere, at any function - he WILL get a piece of my mind and (maybe a
guitar wrapped around his head.)
JMK
2005-08-01 03:26:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eugel Yeo
However, after Pat's tirade (and I'm assuming it's genuine), I'm dying to
hear the piece.
But to buy the CD would be endorsing Kenny's "crass gesture".
Well, apparently Kenny G donated some or all of the profits to
charity, so you can look at it that way.

JMK
Kurt Shapiro
2005-08-01 03:38:19 UTC
Permalink
There's something to be said too if it rekindles "civilian" interest in
Louis Armstrong.
Post by JMK
Post by Eugel Yeo
However, after Pat's tirade (and I'm assuming it's genuine), I'm dying to
hear the piece.
But to buy the CD would be endorsing Kenny's "crass gesture".
Well, apparently Kenny G donated some or all of the profits to
charity, so you can look at it that way.
JMK
thom_j.
2005-08-01 04:07:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by cminor7b5
Pat Metheney on Kenny G.
snipped solely for band space>
Post by cminor7b5
Everything I said here is exactly the same as what I would say
to Gorelick if I ever saw him in person. and if I ever DO see him
anywhere, at any function - he WILL get a piece of my mind and (maybe a
guitar wrapped around his head.)
Now here's a man who speaks his mind & will wrap guitars
around folks heads, and you'all thought some rmmgj'ers are
hard on others at times? Poosh'ahh I say... 8^)'..
cheers from curious tee'..
Kurt Shapiro
2005-08-01 04:34:25 UTC
Permalink
A knock down drag out fight between Kenny G and Pat Metheny: Man, that'd
be somethin'!

If ever there were a couple of tough customers, it's those two.
Post by thom_j.
Post by cminor7b5
Pat Metheney on Kenny G.
snipped solely for band space>
Post by cminor7b5
Everything I said here is exactly the same as what I would say
to Gorelick if I ever saw him in person. and if I ever DO see him
anywhere, at any function - he WILL get a piece of my mind and (maybe a
guitar wrapped around his head.)
Now here's a man who speaks his mind & will wrap guitars
around folks heads, and you'all thought some rmmgj'ers are
hard on others at times? Poosh'ahh I say... 8^)'..
cheers from curious tee'..
Joey Goldstein
2005-08-01 03:54:37 UTC
Permalink
This old news. It's around 3 years ago now I think.
Post by cminor7b5
Apparently Pat is NOT a big Kenny G fan.
Pat Metheney on Kenny G.
Kenny G is not a musician I really had much of an opinion about at all
until recently. There was not much about the way he played that
interested me one way or the other either live or on records.
I first heard him a number of years ago playing as a sideman with Jeff
Lorber when they opened a concert for my band. My impression was that
he was someone who had spent a fair amount of time listening to the
more pop oriented sax players of that time, like Grover Washington or
David Sanborn, but was not really an advanced player, even in that
style. He had major rhythmic problems and his harmonic and melodic
vocabulary was extremely limited, mostly to pentatonic based and
blues-lick derived patterns, and he basically exhibited only a
rudimentary understanding of how to function as a professional soloist
in an ensemble - Lorber was basically playing him off the bandstand in
terms of actual music.
But he did show a knack for connecting to the basest impulses of the
large crowd by deploying his two or three most effective licks (holding
long notes and playing fast runs - never mind that there were lots of
harmonic clams in them) at the key moments to elicit a powerful crowd
reaction (over and over again). The other main thing I noticed was that
he also, as he does to this day, played horribly out of tune -
consistently sharp.
Of course, I am aware of what he has played since, the success it has
had, and the controversy that has surrounded him among musicians and
serious listeners. This controversy seems to be largely fueled by the
fact that he sells an enormous amount of records while not being
anywhere near a really great player in relation to the standards that
have been set on his instrument over the past sixty or seventy years.
And honestly, there is no small amount of envy involved from musicians
who see one of their fellow players doing so well financially,
especially when so many of them who are far superior as improvisors and
musicians in general have trouble just making a living. There must be
hundreds, if not thousands of sax players around the world who are
simply better improvising musicians than Kenny G on his chosen
instruments. It would really surprise me if even he disagreed with that
statement.
Having said that, it has gotten me to thinking lately why so many jazz
musicians (myself included, given the right "bait" of a question, as I
will explain later) and audiences have gone so far as to say that what
he is playing is not even jazz at all. Stepping back for a minute, if
we examine the way he plays, especially if one can remove the actual
improvising from the often mundane background environment that it is
delivered in, we see that his saxophone style is in fact clearly in the
tradition of the kind of playing that most reasonably objective
listeners WOULD normally quantify as being jazz. It's just that as jazz
or even as music in a general sense, with these standards in mind, it
is simply not up to the level of playing that we historically associate
with professional improvising musicians. So, lately I have been
advocating that we go ahead and just include it under the word jazz -
since pretty much of the rest of the world OUTSIDE of the jazz
community does anyway - and let the chips fall where they may.
And after all, why he should be judged by any other standard, why he
should be exempt from that that all other serious musicians on his
instrument are judged by if they attempt to use their abilities in an
improvisational context playing with a rhythm section as he does? He
SHOULD be compared to John Coltrane or Wayne Shorter, for instance, on
his abilities (or lack thereof) to play the soprano saxophone and his
success (or lack thereof) at finding a way to deploy that instrument in
an ensemble in order to accurately gauge his abilities and put them in
the context of his instrument's legacy and potential.
As a composer of even eighth note based music, he SHOULD be compared to
Herbie Hancock, Horace Silver or even Grover Washington. Suffice it to
say, on all above counts, at this point in his development, he wouldn't
fare well.
But, like I said at the top, this relatively benign view was all "until
recently".
Not long ago, Kenny G put out a recording where he overdubbed himself
on top of a 30+ year old Louis Armstrong record, the track "What a
Wonderful World". With this single move, Kenny G became one of the few
people on earth I can say that I really can't use at all - as a man,
for his incredible arrogance to even consider such a thing, and as a
musician, for presuming to share the stage with the single most
important figure in our music.
This type of musical necrophilia - the technique of overdubbing on the
preexisting tracks of already dead performers - was weird when Natalie
Cole did it with her dad on "Unforgettable" a few years ago, but it was
her dad. When Tony Bennett did it with Billie Holiday it was bizarre,
but we are talking about two of the greatest singers of the 20th
century who were on roughly the same level of artistic accomplishment.
When Larry Coryell presumed to overdub himself on top of a Wes
Montgomery track, I lost a lot of the respect that I ever had for him -
and I have to seriously question the fact that I did have respect for
someone who could turn out to have such unbelievably bad taste and be
that disrespectful to one of my personal heroes.
But when Kenny G decided that it was appropriate for him to defile the
music of the man who is probably the greatest jazz musician that has
ever lived by spewing his lame-ass, jive, pseudo bluesy, out-of-tune,
noodling, wimped out, fucked up playing all over one of the great
Louis's tracks (even one of his lesser ones), he did something that I
would not have imagined possible. He, in one move, through his
unbelievably pretentious and calloused musical decision to embark on
this most cynical of musical paths, shit all over the graves of all the
musicians past and present who have risked their lives by going out
there on the road for years and years developing their own music
inspired by the standards of grace that Louis Armstrong brought to
every single note he played over an amazing lifetime as a musician. By
disrespecting Louis, his legacy and by default, everyone who has ever
tried to do something positive with improvised music and what it can
be, Kenny G has created a new low point in modern culture - something
that we all should be totally embarrassed about - and afraid of. We
ignore this, "let it slide", at our own peril.
His callous disregard for the larger issues of what this crass gesture
implies is exacerbated by the fact that the only reason he possibly
have for doing something this inherently wrong (on both human and
musical terms) was for the record sales and the money it would bring.
Since that record came out - in protest, as insignificant as it may be,
I encourage everyone to boycott Kenny G recordings, concerts and
anything he is associated with. If asked about Kenny G, I will dissmis
him and his music with the same passion that is in evidence in this
little essay.
Normally, I feel that musicians all have a hard enough time, regardless
of their level, just trying to play good and don't really benefit from
public criticism, particularly from their fellow players. but, this is
different.
There ARE some things that are sacred - and amongst any musician that
has ever attempted to address jazz at even the most basic of levels,
Louis Armstrong and his music is hallowed ground. To ignore this
trespass is to agree that NOTHING any musician has attempted to do with
their life in music has any intrinsic value - and I refuse to do that.
(I am also amazed that there HASN'T already been an outcry against this
among music critics - where ARE they on this?????!?!?!?!, magazines,
etc.). Everything I said here is exactly the same as what I would say
to Gorelick if I ever saw him in person. and if I ever DO see him
anywhere, at any function - he WILL get a piece of my mind and (maybe a
guitar wrapped around his head.)
--
Joey Goldstein
http://www.joeygoldstein.com
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca
markr
2005-08-01 04:30:59 UTC
Permalink
there have been more than a few threads up here about this. Metheny
made those remarks a long time ago.
cyberkatru
2005-08-01 04:48:09 UTC
Permalink
Metheny's comments about Larry Coryell are uncalled for. Metheney is being a
bit of an ass.
I realize that Pats's playing is very good from an objective stance but just
as a matter of taste I must say that his music often puts me to sleep. Its
too sweet, no bite, too breezy. And the tone, jeez, it sounds like he is
playing in an underwater cave somewhere in the south pacific. Not my cup of
tea.
Post by cminor7b5
Apparently Pat is NOT a big Kenny G fan.
Pat Metheney on Kenny G.
Kenny G is not a musician I really had much of an opinion about at all
until recently. There was not much about the way he played that
interested me one way or the other either live or on records.
I first heard him a number of years ago playing as a sideman with Jeff
Lorber when they opened a concert for my band. My impression was that
he was someone who had spent a fair amount of time listening to the
more pop oriented sax players of that time, like Grover Washington or
David Sanborn, but was not really an advanced player, even in that
style. He had major rhythmic problems and his harmonic and melodic
vocabulary was extremely limited, mostly to pentatonic based and
blues-lick derived patterns, and he basically exhibited only a
rudimentary understanding of how to function as a professional soloist
in an ensemble - Lorber was basically playing him off the bandstand in
terms of actual music.
But he did show a knack for connecting to the basest impulses of the
large crowd by deploying his two or three most effective licks (holding
long notes and playing fast runs - never mind that there were lots of
harmonic clams in them) at the key moments to elicit a powerful crowd
reaction (over and over again). The other main thing I noticed was that
he also, as he does to this day, played horribly out of tune -
consistently sharp.
Of course, I am aware of what he has played since, the success it has
had, and the controversy that has surrounded him among musicians and
serious listeners. This controversy seems to be largely fueled by the
fact that he sells an enormous amount of records while not being
anywhere near a really great player in relation to the standards that
have been set on his instrument over the past sixty or seventy years.
And honestly, there is no small amount of envy involved from musicians
who see one of their fellow players doing so well financially,
especially when so many of them who are far superior as improvisors and
musicians in general have trouble just making a living. There must be
hundreds, if not thousands of sax players around the world who are
simply better improvising musicians than Kenny G on his chosen
instruments. It would really surprise me if even he disagreed with that
statement.
Having said that, it has gotten me to thinking lately why so many jazz
musicians (myself included, given the right "bait" of a question, as I
will explain later) and audiences have gone so far as to say that what
he is playing is not even jazz at all. Stepping back for a minute, if
we examine the way he plays, especially if one can remove the actual
improvising from the often mundane background environment that it is
delivered in, we see that his saxophone style is in fact clearly in the
tradition of the kind of playing that most reasonably objective
listeners WOULD normally quantify as being jazz. It's just that as jazz
or even as music in a general sense, with these standards in mind, it
is simply not up to the level of playing that we historically associate
with professional improvising musicians. So, lately I have been
advocating that we go ahead and just include it under the word jazz -
since pretty much of the rest of the world OUTSIDE of the jazz
community does anyway - and let the chips fall where they may.
And after all, why he should be judged by any other standard, why he
should be exempt from that that all other serious musicians on his
instrument are judged by if they attempt to use their abilities in an
improvisational context playing with a rhythm section as he does? He
SHOULD be compared to John Coltrane or Wayne Shorter, for instance, on
his abilities (or lack thereof) to play the soprano saxophone and his
success (or lack thereof) at finding a way to deploy that instrument in
an ensemble in order to accurately gauge his abilities and put them in
the context of his instrument's legacy and potential.
As a composer of even eighth note based music, he SHOULD be compared to
Herbie Hancock, Horace Silver or even Grover Washington. Suffice it to
say, on all above counts, at this point in his development, he wouldn't
fare well.
But, like I said at the top, this relatively benign view was all "until
recently".
Not long ago, Kenny G put out a recording where he overdubbed himself
on top of a 30+ year old Louis Armstrong record, the track "What a
Wonderful World". With this single move, Kenny G became one of the few
people on earth I can say that I really can't use at all - as a man,
for his incredible arrogance to even consider such a thing, and as a
musician, for presuming to share the stage with the single most
important figure in our music.
This type of musical necrophilia - the technique of overdubbing on the
preexisting tracks of already dead performers - was weird when Natalie
Cole did it with her dad on "Unforgettable" a few years ago, but it was
her dad. When Tony Bennett did it with Billie Holiday it was bizarre,
but we are talking about two of the greatest singers of the 20th
century who were on roughly the same level of artistic accomplishment.
When Larry Coryell presumed to overdub himself on top of a Wes
Montgomery track, I lost a lot of the respect that I ever had for him -
and I have to seriously question the fact that I did have respect for
someone who could turn out to have such unbelievably bad taste and be
that disrespectful to one of my personal heroes.
But when Kenny G decided that it was appropriate for him to defile the
music of the man who is probably the greatest jazz musician that has
ever lived by spewing his lame-ass, jive, pseudo bluesy, out-of-tune,
noodling, wimped out, fucked up playing all over one of the great
Louis's tracks (even one of his lesser ones), he did something that I
would not have imagined possible. He, in one move, through his
unbelievably pretentious and calloused musical decision to embark on
this most cynical of musical paths, shit all over the graves of all the
musicians past and present who have risked their lives by going out
there on the road for years and years developing their own music
inspired by the standards of grace that Louis Armstrong brought to
every single note he played over an amazing lifetime as a musician. By
disrespecting Louis, his legacy and by default, everyone who has ever
tried to do something positive with improvised music and what it can
be, Kenny G has created a new low point in modern culture - something
that we all should be totally embarrassed about - and afraid of. We
ignore this, "let it slide", at our own peril.
His callous disregard for the larger issues of what this crass gesture
implies is exacerbated by the fact that the only reason he possibly
have for doing something this inherently wrong (on both human and
musical terms) was for the record sales and the money it would bring.
Since that record came out - in protest, as insignificant as it may be,
I encourage everyone to boycott Kenny G recordings, concerts and
anything he is associated with. If asked about Kenny G, I will dissmis
him and his music with the same passion that is in evidence in this
little essay.
Normally, I feel that musicians all have a hard enough time, regardless
of their level, just trying to play good and don't really benefit from
public criticism, particularly from their fellow players. but, this is
different.
There ARE some things that are sacred - and amongst any musician that
has ever attempted to address jazz at even the most basic of levels,
Louis Armstrong and his music is hallowed ground. To ignore this
trespass is to agree that NOTHING any musician has attempted to do with
their life in music has any intrinsic value - and I refuse to do that.
(I am also amazed that there HASN'T already been an outcry against this
among music critics - where ARE they on this?????!?!?!?!, magazines,
etc.). Everything I said here is exactly the same as what I would say
to Gorelick if I ever saw him in person. and if I ever DO see him
anywhere, at any function - he WILL get a piece of my mind and (maybe a
guitar wrapped around his head.)
Al
2005-08-01 13:55:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by cyberkatru
Metheny's comments about Larry Coryell are uncalled for. Metheney is being a
bit of an ass.
I realize that Pats's playing is very good from an objective stance but just
as a matter of taste I must say that his music often puts me to sleep. Its
too sweet, no bite, too breezy. And the tone, jeez, it sounds like he is
playing in an underwater cave somewhere in the south pacific. Not my cup of
tea.
Too sweet? Check out his Zero Tolerance for Silence record. Pat can play
pretty, but he's absolutely one of the most diverse cats out there.

And his tone for years now has been very dry. That chorused sound is his
very old stuff.
woodyhonkin
2005-08-01 06:39:24 UTC
Permalink
hmmm... who are we talking about here? umm Pat Metheny...

It seems we all know his name, and are familiar with his
RECORDINGS....as are many of the very gifted people he has worked
with... It seems to me he has a unique sound, and very original.

I wonder how many of OUR names HE knows due to our vast accomplishments
publishing our own unique musical ideas with our blistering chops while
making a living with other recognized and accomplished players, and
seeming to make a career out of it??

My music career spanning some 45 years, 8 of which were full time
music professional the other 37 yrs professional part time, has surely
had some high points, but none as substantial as his. Once I am able
to stand on the mountain where he is standing and make my
pronouncements, I will have earned the right to do so.

Meanwhile, I am still whacking away at my own practice, occasionally
playing in public as I can.

humbly,
k***@gmail.com
2005-08-01 15:24:18 UTC
Permalink
In other news, Bush defeats Gore!
t***@jhu.edu
2005-08-02 19:43:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by k***@gmail.com
In other news, Bush defeats Gore!
I think you meant to say: "Five Republican justices on the U.S. Supreme
Court stop the recount in Florida in order to hand the presidency to
one of their own."
paul
2005-08-01 15:36:27 UTC
Permalink
1999 called, it wants its thread back.
Max Leggett
2005-08-01 16:00:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by paul
1999 called, it wants its thread back.
Well, I think that we should dick Nixon before Nixon dicks us, that's
all I can say.








--------------------------------------------------------------
"If the gods wanted us to twist our spines about
while we played guitar, they would have given us
rubber bands rather than vertebrae. And then where
would humanity be? Propelling cornflakes box
submarines in some alien bathtub in an ungodly
time dimension where the music of the spheres
consisted of Kenny G."
Spinoza
--------------------------------------------------------------
KevinW
2005-08-01 16:04:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Max Leggett
Post by paul
1999 called, it wants its thread back.
Well, I think that we should dick Nixon before Nixon dicks us, that's
all I can say.
Vote for Pat Paulsen.



KevinW
Kurt Shapiro
2005-08-02 15:16:11 UTC
Permalink
Don't change Dicks in the middle of screw, vote for Nixon in '72.
Post by Max Leggett
Post by paul
1999 called, it wants its thread back.
Well, I think that we should dick Nixon before Nixon dicks us, that's
all I can say.
--------------------------------------------------------------
"If the gods wanted us to twist our spines about
while we played guitar, they would have given us
rubber bands rather than vertebrae. And then where
would humanity be? Propelling cornflakes box
submarines in some alien bathtub in an ungodly
time dimension where the music of the spheres
consisted of Kenny G."
Spinoza
--------------------------------------------------------------
Dan Adler
2005-08-01 16:01:52 UTC
Permalink
Most threads these days are reruns. The new season starts after Labor
day :-)

-Dan
http://danadler.com
Hans van Leeuwen
2005-08-01 16:14:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by cminor7b5
Apparently Pat is NOT a big Kenny G fan.
Pat Metheney on Kenny G.
Kenny G is not a musician I really had much of an opinion about at all
until recently.
bla, bla
he WILL get a piece of my mind and (maybe a
guitar wrapped around his head.)
Metheny is one of the really greats and has changed the scope of guitar
improvising forever with his new and original approach. I mean the work he
did with his trio and with other great musicians. Therefore I forgive him
his sometimes irritating facial acrobatics and sometimes soporific PMG sound
(which is also meant to reach a wider and less jazz oriented audience, by
the way).
Nevertheless I find his essay on Kenny G. rather superfluous and I am
surprised that such an intellectually and musically gifted person is wasting
that many words on a totally unimportant phenomenon like Kenny G. He could
have stated it in one single phrase: Kenny G. sucks!
Hans
Kurt Shapiro
2005-08-02 15:18:24 UTC
Permalink
I dug what Metheny said about Louis Armstrong though. I can see why Metheny
would get his panties in a wad about the issue. Louis is sacred.
Post by Hans van Leeuwen
Post by cminor7b5
Apparently Pat is NOT a big Kenny G fan.
Pat Metheney on Kenny G.
Kenny G is not a musician I really had much of an opinion about at all
until recently.
bla, bla
he WILL get a piece of my mind and (maybe a
guitar wrapped around his head.)
Metheny is one of the really greats and has changed the scope of guitar
improvising forever with his new and original approach. I mean the work he
did with his trio and with other great musicians. Therefore I forgive him
his sometimes irritating facial acrobatics and sometimes soporific PMG sound
(which is also meant to reach a wider and less jazz oriented audience, by
the way).
Nevertheless I find his essay on Kenny G. rather superfluous and I am
surprised that such an intellectually and musically gifted person is wasting
that many words on a totally unimportant phenomenon like Kenny G. He could
have stated it in one single phrase: Kenny G. sucks!
Hans
t***@jhu.edu
2005-08-02 20:26:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kurt Shapiro
I dug what Metheny said about Louis Armstrong though. I can see why Metheny
would get his panties in a wad about the issue. Louis is sacred.
No, that's ridiculous. Louis was a great entertainer who also happened
to be a great musician. "What a Wonderful World" isn't even one of his
better works. Overdubbing is no more of a desecration than sampling.
Maybe Pat should take on the entire hip hop population for his next
tirade.
Kurt Shapiro
2005-08-02 21:54:16 UTC
Permalink
Yeah, but it's Louis Armstrong. Louis is special in my book. If a rapper
sampled some of it, it wouldn't bother me so much, maybe because I wouldn't
expect them to have the same regard for Louis Armstrong that a jazz musician
does, or maybe because they'd likely just use a piece of it rather than
overdubbing the whole thing.

Still, you've got a point. People recycle things all the time. Would
anyone, including Metheny, think it was such a big deal if Kenny G had
overdubbed himself over some J.S. Bach piece? Probably a few pinhead
classical players and that's about it.

I wonder how Louis would have felt about it.
Post by t***@jhu.edu
Post by Kurt Shapiro
I dug what Metheny said about Louis Armstrong though. I can see why Metheny
would get his panties in a wad about the issue. Louis is sacred.
No, that's ridiculous. Louis was a great entertainer who also happened
to be a great musician. "What a Wonderful World" isn't even one of his
better works. Overdubbing is no more of a desecration than sampling.
Maybe Pat should take on the entire hip hop population for his next
tirade.
Max Leggett
2005-08-02 22:10:35 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 2 Aug 2005 14:54:16 -0700, "Kurt Shapiro"
Post by Kurt Shapiro
Yeah, but it's Louis Armstrong. Louis is special in my book. If a rapper
sampled some of it, it wouldn't bother me so much, maybe because I wouldn't
expect them to have the same regard for Louis Armstrong that a jazz musician
does, or maybe because they'd likely just use a piece of it rather than
overdubbing the whole thing.
Still, you've got a point. People recycle things all the time. Would
anyone, including Metheny, think it was such a big deal if Kenny G had
overdubbed himself over some J.S. Bach piece? Probably a few pinhead
classical players and that's about it.
Well, it's only some pinhead jazz players that ..... Hey! Wait a
minute!
Post by Kurt Shapiro
I wonder how Louis would have felt about it.
Pops was so beautiful he'd probably have loved it. He might not have
considered it to be the same as playing with Jimmy Noone, but he'd
have smiled and called G "Gate."

Red beans and ricely yours,

Max









--------------------------------------------------------------
"If the gods wanted us to twist our spines about
while we played guitar, they would have given us
rubber bands rather than vertebrae. And then where
would humanity be? Propelling cornflakes box
submarines in some alien bathtub in an ungodly
time dimension where the music of the spheres
consisted of Kenny G."
Spinoza
--------------------------------------------------------------
pmfan57
2005-08-02 19:57:49 UTC
Permalink
It is meant to express certain very serious compositional goals that
Pat has, NOT simply to reach the masses, as you imply.

If you read his interviews he is very adamant that all his music is for
himself. If people like it, that's great.

His PMG group stuff is amazingly lovely and his improvisations are some
of his best and most beautiful solos.

Something that sounds lovely can be good music. Mozart is good music,
right? (Mozart definitely wanted people to like his music).

Joe
Post by Hans van Leeuwen
Post by cminor7b5
Apparently Pat is NOT a big Kenny G fan.
Pat Metheney on Kenny G.
Kenny G is not a musician I really had much of an opinion about at all
until recently.
bla, bla
he WILL get a piece of my mind and (maybe a
guitar wrapped around his head.)
Metheny is one of the really greats and has changed the scope of guitar
improvising forever with his new and original approach. I mean the work he
did with his trio and with other great musicians. Therefore I forgive him
his sometimes irritating facial acrobatics and sometimes soporific PMG sound
(which is also meant to reach a wider and less jazz oriented audience, by
the way).
Nevertheless I find his essay on Kenny G. rather superfluous and I am
surprised that such an intellectually and musically gifted person is wasting
that many words on a totally unimportant phenomenon like Kenny G. He could
have stated it in one single phrase: Kenny G. sucks!
Hans
Max Smith
2005-08-02 20:31:38 UTC
Permalink
I find his non-PMG stuff even more impressive - Question and Answer,
80/81, Rejoicing, the "Trio" albums, etc.

Max S.
pmfan57
2005-08-02 22:21:14 UTC
Permalink
I don't like it as much. I like other players more for trio
inside/outside stuff.

But his PMG stuff. That's sublime musicmaking and soloing. No one
else can solo like that.
Post by Max Smith
I find his non-PMG stuff even more impressive - Question and Answer,
80/81, Rejoicing, the "Trio" albums, etc.
Max S.
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