Question about Rhythm Changes used in the Mickey Baker book

[j***@yahoo.com]

For some reason, on p.50, he has the Rhythm Changes progression going
from

Bbmaj6 to Gb7 to F11 back to Gb7. I wasn't familiar with the Gb7
there. Shouldn't that be G7 or can someone explain that sub to me.

First two bars

Bbmaj6 Gb7 | F11 Gb7 |

[Keith Freeman]

Post by j***@yahoo.com
Bbmaj6 to Gb7 to F11 back to Gb7. I wasn't familiar with the Gb7
there. Shouldn't that be G7 or can someone explain that sub to me.

That's how it's usually played, with G7 (or Gmi7).

Post by j***@yahoo.com
Bbmaj6 Gb7 | F11 Gb7 |

The second bar's not standard, either. The whole thing clashes abominably
with the original melody | F G | Bb C |.

The standard progression begins

Bb G7 | C-7 F7 |

I expect Mickey had developed his own idiosyncratic version, but the fact
that he's foisting it on unsuspecting beginners only makes me hate his
book even more! Anyone starting out with this book - other than as a bit
of light relief from serious study - is asking for trouble IMNSHO.

-Keith

Music samples, tips, Portable Changes at
http://home.wanadoo.nl/keith.freeman/

E-mail: keith DOT freeman AT wanadoo DOT nl

[Rick Stone]

Post by Keith Freeman
I expect Mickey had developed his own idiosyncratic version, but the fact
that he's foisting it on unsuspecting beginners only makes me hate his
book even more! Anyone starting out with this book - other than as a bit
of light relief from serious study - is asking for trouble IMNSHO.

I agree that Mickey's naming of chords is pretty idiosyncratic, but
considering when it was written wouldn't that be expected? There weren't a
lot of other jazz books out at that time, and naming chord changes was
always (and still is to some degree) a rather inexact science. Although
with schools like Berklee and books like Jerry Coker's, etc. standardizing
things over the years, there seems to be more of a consensus nowadays.

Anyway, I started learning to play jazz with the help of the Mickey Baker
book about 30 years ago, and I don't think it messed me up. Of course it
wasn't the only book I studied from and I was able to see pretty easily that
some of Mickey's chord naming rationale was a little funny. I particularly
remember that one "13(b5b9)" chord that was voiced with the b5 in the bass
(b5, b9, b7, 3, 13). A bit convoluted, and should really have been a 7(#9)
chord named from the bass note (R, 5, 3, b7, #9). But nothing that you
couldn't figure out easily.

Considering that over the past 50 years, nobody's really come up with a book
that's much better, I'd say Mickey did a pretty good job. Lots of decent
sounding progressions for a beginner to get their hands on, and some ideas
about how to use them. The "original" changes Mickey gives resemble the
kind of stuff you'd find in the old "#1" fake book (the one from the 1940s
that guys were still using around the time Mickey wrote his book).

Musically Yours,
Rick Stone
website: http://www.rickstone.com
Listen to clips from my new CD "Samba de Novembro" with Tardo Hammer, Yosuke
Inoue and Matt Wilson at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/rickstone
And drummer Al Ashley's CD "These Are Them" featuring Dave Leibman, Rick
Stone and Oliver Von Essen at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/alashley

[Keith Freeman]

Post by Rick Stone
Considering that over the past 50 years, nobody's really come up with
a book that's much better

I see shelves full of books that are much better in my local music store!

-Keith

Music samples, tips, Portable Changes at
http://home.wanadoo.nl/keith.freeman/

E-mail: keith DOT freeman AT wanadoo DOT nl

[c***@claymoore.com]

Post by Rick Stone
Considering that over the past 50 years, nobody's really come up with a book
that's much better, I'd say Mickey did a pretty good job. Lots of decent
sounding progressions for a beginner to get their hands on, and some ideas
about how to use them. The "original" changes Mickey gives resemble the
kind of stuff you'd find in the old "#1" fake book (the one from the 1940s
that guys were still using around the time Mickey wrote his book).

Hi Rick,

I had a similar experience starting with this book and have the same
opinion as you. I remember a few years ago I was on a gig where the
singer double booked me and another guitarist. After the initial
awkwardness we all agreed to take the pay hit and play together. This
guy played changes straight out of Baker's book, and he played his ass
off. I actually ended up laying out most of the time to let him comp. I
think people make WAY too much out the mistakes, so-called lack of
harmonic sophistication, and other "errors" in that book. There's
nothing wrong with playing the changes to tunes with the chords Baker
lays out, as long as you're swingin'!

Clay Moore
http://www.claymoore.com

[markr]

Post by j***@yahoo.com
For some reason, on p.50, he has the Rhythm Changes progression going
from
Bbmaj6 to Gb7 to F11 back to Gb7. I wasn't familiar with the Gb7
there. Shouldn't that be G7 or can someone explain that sub to me.
First two bars
Bbmaj6 Gb7 | F11 Gb7 |

That first Gb7 is odd. I would play Gm7 or G7 or Db7 on my way to the
IIm or V7 chord. I wouldn't choose to play Gb7 on the last two beats of
bar 2 either...I see that as a transition back to I or to III like a
Bird blues.

[j***@uiuc.edu]

I've seen some changes that were altered to rhythm changes but sounded
good with the
melody of the tunes, including Bb Bbdim | C-7 F7 | Bb Gb7 | C-7 F7 |.
In my limited experience (relative to many players in this newsgroup)
I've found that a
"fixed structure" for rhythm changes has some common variations
depending on the
tunes it was fitted to. Looking at the underpinning rhythm changes to
some of Bird's tunes
(and how they are varied) might help.

[Tomson]

I agree. It's not exactly standard, far from it.

It's an old and common substitution, though. One recording where it it
used is Miles Davis' "Star People" on the tune "U'n'I" - changes:
Gm7 / Gb7 / F7sus/ Gb7
"U'n'I" has no bridge, it's just this vamp and a melody.

I have wondered a lot myself how this version came about. It's not
clearly derived from the original cadence:
Bbmaj7 / G7 / Cm7/ F7 or Dm7 / G7 / Cm7 / F7 or bars 5-6, 13-14 and
29-30: Bb / Bb7/D / Eb / Edim
but it seems to be a way to play around the tonic chord Bbmaj7 and the
dominant F7sus, they are surrounded by this weirdo Gb7 that makes it a
wonderful vamp in itself.

Or does anyone have a better explanation for this one? I agree that it
was a very bad idea from the author of this book to supply this version
as the only example of rhythm changes. It's a very special case and
that should have been pointed out, if it had to be included at all.
Overall, I like this book, I learned a lot from it myself, some twenty
years ago - but something like rhythm changes, which is one of the big
corner-stones of jazz along with the blues should have been explained
from the bottom up and not with this strange example...

JMHO,
Tomas Karlsson
http://www.tomaskarlsson.com/

[dunlop212]

The second Gb7 works OK if you are walking the bassline Freddy Green
style, and put the 5th in the bass:

Bbmaj7 Bdim Cm7 Gb7 Bb/D Gb7 Cm7 Db7 ...

Kind of hard to sing "We want Cantor" to, though.

Everything I know is somewhere in the first Mickey Baker book. But I
don't know much.

[j***@yahoo.com]

Post by Tomson
I agree. It's not exactly standard, far from it.
It's an old and common substitution, though. One recording where it it
Gm7 / Gb7 / F7sus/ Gb7
"U'n'I" has no bridge, it's just this vamp and a melody.
I have wondered a lot myself how this version came about. It's not
Bbmaj7 / G7 / Cm7/ F7 or Dm7 / G7 / Cm7 / F7 or bars 5-6, 13-14 and
29-30: Bb / Bb7/D / Eb / Edim
but it seems to be a way to play around the tonic chord Bbmaj7 and the
dominant F7sus, they are surrounded by this weirdo Gb7 that makes it a
wonderful vamp in itself.
Or does anyone have a better explanation for this one? I agree that it
was a very bad idea from the author of this book to supply this version
as the only example of rhythm changes. It's a very special case and
that should have been pointed out, if it had to be included at all.
Overall, I like this book, I learned a lot from it myself, some twenty
years ago - but something like rhythm changes, which is one of the big
corner-stones of jazz along with the blues should have been explained
from the bottom up and not with this strange example...
JMHO,
Tomas Karlsson
http://www.tomaskarlsson.com/

Thanks for the great information Tomas.

[Rick Stone]

Well, as I was taught, the "original" changes are pretty much just "Bb" (or
Bb F7 Bb F7) for the first 4 bars. There are a ton of ways to create
movement on a static tonic chord, of which I vi ii V7 is one. The G7 for a
VI7 chord is already a substitution. There are a lot of other ways it can
be played.

A common move on first 4 measures of Rhythm is to play from the I6 to the
IV6 chord and back using a diminished to connect them chromatically (like
the Basie "tag" figure). I'd probably notate it as: Bb6 Bbo7 Eb6 Bbo7 Bb6,
or Bb/D Dbo7 Cm7 Dbo7 Bb/D, but what you describe from the Baker book makes
sense (can't find my copy right now to corroborate). That Gb7 chord is
probably in the inversion with Db in the bass right? That means it's acting
like a Dbo7, and the F7sus is that voicing he likes to use with C in the
bass, so it's really just a Cm7 chord (or an Eb6 inversion). It may be in
some other inversion, but the main thing will be that you'll hear a
chromatic line that just moves down and back up to the tonic when you play
it.

You can't always go by what Mickey Baker calls things. The progression is
basically right. Just play them and listen, if the voices sound good, be
happy.

Musically Yours,
Rick Stone
website: http://www.rickstone.com
Listen to clips from my new CD "Samba de Novembro" with Tardo Hammer, Yosuke
Inoue and Matt Wilson at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/rickstone
And drummer Al Ashley's CD "These Are Them" featuring Dave Leibman, Rick
Stone and Oliver Von Essen at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/alashley

Post by Tomson
I agree. It's not exactly standard, far from it.
It's an old and common substitution, though. One recording where it it
Gm7 / Gb7 / F7sus/ Gb7
"U'n'I" has no bridge, it's just this vamp and a melody.
I have wondered a lot myself how this version came about. It's not
Bbmaj7 / G7 / Cm7/ F7 or Dm7 / G7 / Cm7 / F7 or bars 5-6, 13-14 and
29-30: Bb / Bb7/D / Eb / Edim
but it seems to be a way to play around the tonic chord Bbmaj7 and the
dominant F7sus, they are surrounded by this weirdo Gb7 that makes it a
wonderful vamp in itself.
Or does anyone have a better explanation for this one? I agree that it
was a very bad idea from the author of this book to supply this version
as the only example of rhythm changes. It's a very special case and
that should have been pointed out, if it had to be included at all.
Overall, I like this book, I learned a lot from it myself, some twenty
years ago - but something like rhythm changes, which is one of the big
corner-stones of jazz along with the blues should have been explained
from the bottom up and not with this strange example...
JMHO,
Tomas Karlsson
http://www.tomaskarlsson.com/

[j***@yahoo.com]

Makes sense. I just thought it was an odd version to start out with if
you want to solo over Rhythm changes unless you just are thinking Bb
for the a section. He also presents a solo over those changes so I was
hoping to glean some ideas. Not sure if you would use the solo ideas
he presents in this section over the more common changes.

Post by Rick Stone
Well, as I was taught, the "original" changes are pretty much just "Bb" (or
Bb F7 Bb F7) for the first 4 bars. There are a ton of ways to create
movement on a static tonic chord, of which I vi ii V7 is one. The G7 for a
VI7 chord is already a substitution. There are a lot of other ways it can
be played.
A common move on first 4 measures of Rhythm is to play from the I6 to the
IV6 chord and back using a diminished to connect them chromatically (like
the Basie "tag" figure). I'd probably notate it as: Bb6 Bbo7 Eb6 Bbo7 Bb6,
or Bb/D Dbo7 Cm7 Dbo7 Bb/D, but what you describe from the Baker book makes
sense (can't find my copy right now to corroborate). That Gb7 chord is
probably in the inversion with Db in the bass right? That means it's acting
like a Dbo7, and the F7sus is that voicing he likes to use with C in the
bass, so it's really just a Cm7 chord (or an Eb6 inversion). It may be in
some other inversion, but the main thing will be that you'll hear a
chromatic line that just moves down and back up to the tonic when you play
it.
You can't always go by what Mickey Baker calls things. The progression is
basically right. Just play them and listen, if the voices sound good, be
happy.
Musically Yours,
Rick Stone
website: http://www.rickstone.com
Listen to clips from my new CD "Samba de Novembro" with Tardo Hammer, Yosuke
Inoue and Matt Wilson at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/rickstone
And drummer Al Ashley's CD "These Are Them" featuring Dave Leibman, Rick
Stone and Oliver Von Essen at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/alashley

Post by Tomson
I agree. It's not exactly standard, far from it.
It's an old and common substitution, though. One recording where it it
Gm7 / Gb7 / F7sus/ Gb7
"U'n'I" has no bridge, it's just this vamp and a melody.
I have wondered a lot myself how this version came about. It's not
Bbmaj7 / G7 / Cm7/ F7 or Dm7 / G7 / Cm7 / F7 or bars 5-6, 13-14 and
29-30: Bb / Bb7/D / Eb / Edim
but it seems to be a way to play around the tonic chord Bbmaj7 and the
dominant F7sus, they are surrounded by this weirdo Gb7 that makes it a
wonderful vamp in itself.
Or does anyone have a better explanation for this one? I agree that it
was a very bad idea from the author of this book to supply this version
as the only example of rhythm changes. It's a very special case and
that should have been pointed out, if it had to be included at all.
Overall, I like this book, I learned a lot from it myself, some twenty
years ago - but something like rhythm changes, which is one of the big
corner-stones of jazz along with the blues should have been explained
from the bottom up and not with this strange example...
JMHO,
Tomas Karlsson
http://www.tomaskarlsson.com/