Coltrane changes over static dominant/minor progressions

[klmmlk ()]

Hi!

I was wondering if someone could explain how to play Coltrane changes over a
static dominant (or even minor) environment... Do you have any good examples of
tunes in which this strategy is used?

Thanks in advance!

[Jeremey Poparad]

Post by klmmlk ()
Hi!
I was wondering if someone could explain how to play Coltrane changes over a
static dominant (or even minor) environment... Do you have any good examples of
tunes in which this strategy is used?
Thanks in advance!
--
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It's really quite simple... just play a line that outlines the chords
in a Coltrane cycle for a few measures during a solo.

For a major situation, starting on the tonic maj7 and proceeding
through the cycle from the first couple bars of Giant Steps would be
the best solution. For example, on a static Cmaj7 (perhaps even a C7
sound):

| Cmaj7 Eb7 | Abmaj7 B7 | Emaj7 G7 | Cmaj7 |

Then, you're brought back to where you left.

For a static minor progression, try taking the first four bars of
"Countdown," which starts on a ii chord, and ends on a I chord (in
fact, this example can be used over any 4-bar ii V I, as this is just
a 'reharm' for "Tune Up," which has a simple ii V I in the first four
bars). In Em:

| Em7 F7 | Bbmaj7 Db7 | Gbmaj7 A7 | Dmaj7 |

The Dmaj7 will sound consonant in an Em7 tonality, as in a normal
situation, playing a Dmaj7 arpeggio against Em7 works pretty well.

[Wayne G]

Post by klmmlk ()
Hi!
I was wondering if someone could explain how to play Coltrane changes over a
static dominant (or even minor) environment... Do you have any good examples of
tunes in which this strategy is used?
Thanks in advance!

Impressions

Dmi7 / F7 / | Bbmaj7 / Db7 / | Gbmaj7 / A7 / | Dmi7 / / / :|


This is derived from back-cycling, the V chord of D minor is A7. That
gets placed in the last 2 beats of the third measure. You then can
find the Coltrane changes for the rest of this progression by working
backwards through the key centers Gb, Bb and Dm again.

W

[Joey Goldstein]

Post by klmmlk ()
Hi!
I was wondering if someone could explain how to play Coltrane changes over a
static dominant (or even minor) environment... Do you have any good examples of
tunes in which this strategy is used?
Thanks in advance!

There is no standard way to superimpose the Coltrane cycle over a static
minor progression.
But on I7 chord guys will just outline the cycle sometimes:

C7 | | | |
becomes
C7 Eb7 |Ab B7 |E G7 |C

In Pat Metheny's tune, Question And Answer, which is in D minor, he uses
the cycle to get from the IVm chord back to the Im chord in this way:

Gm Ab7 |Db E7 |A C7 |F A7 |Dm
Notice that the cycle here is really based on F (F Ab7 Db E7 A C7 F),
not D. F major is the relative major key to D minor.

What the Coltrane changes are are a logical path to start in one *major
key* and modulate to two other * major keys* in a manner that has a
certain symmetry to it that makes modulating back to the original key
seem completely logical. It's about superimposing major keys over the
prevailing tonality more than it's about superimposing chords.

Since it's about major keys, not minor keys, starting the cycle on the
tonic of a minor key is does not usually give the desired effect:
Eg.
Dm F7 |Bb Db7 |Gb A7 |Dm
This sort of "works" (you can make anything "work" if you play it with
enough conviction) but it's got a totally different flavor.
Changing all the targets of the dom7 chords to minor chords (so that you
traverse through 3 minor keys rather than major keys) instead of major
chords is even weaker:
Dm F7 |Bbm Db7 |Gbm A7 |Dm

But if, in D minor, we use the cycle to traverse the major keys that are
in maj 3rd relationships with the relative major key, F, we'd get
something like this:

Dm Ab7 |Db E7 |A C7 |F
All we need now is some way to get back to Dm. Playing an A7 after the F
chord serves this purpose.
It's also possible to go right to the Dm chord instead of the F chord,
but this doesn't sound as complete.

[Mike C.]

Well, what if we considered the static minor environment as a Dorian vamp?
Consider the Dm as ii-7 of C? Couldn't we do this cycle in the key of C?

Dm Eb7|Ab B7|E G7|C Eb7|Dm

It's a slightly different effect than originally intended, but since we're
playing a Dm vamp in this example, it seems to be best to come back to the
Dm in the 5th bar, although we're doing it using a tritone sub, which sounds
fairly interesting to me.

The Mel Bay "Essential Jazz Lines in the style of John Coltrane" by Corey
Christiansen and Kim Bock shows how one may use the Coltrane changes over
"Impressions", utilizing the Dm as tonic: Dm F7 |Bb Db7 |Gb A7 |Dm

That does change the flavor, but any time you change the tonality, you're
going to change the flavor of the changes, no?
--
Mike C.
http://mikecrutcher.com
"A great percentage of people don't want a challenge. They want
something done to them, they don't want to participate. But there'll
always be maybe 15% that desire something more, and they'll search it
out. And maybe that's where art is."
- Bill Evans

Post by Joey Goldstein

Post by klmmlk ()
Hi!
I was wondering if someone could explain how to play Coltrane changes
over a static dominant (or even minor) environment... Do you have any
good examples of tunes in which this strategy is used?
Thanks in advance!

There is no standard way to superimpose the Coltrane cycle over a static
minor progression.
C7 | | | |
becomes
C7 Eb7 |Ab B7 |E G7 |C
In Pat Metheny's tune, Question And Answer, which is in D minor, he uses
Gm Ab7 |Db E7 |A C7 |F A7 |Dm
Notice that the cycle here is really based on F (F Ab7 Db E7 A C7 F), not
D. F major is the relative major key to D minor.
What the Coltrane changes are are a logical path to start in one *major
key* and modulate to two other * major keys* in a manner that has a
certain symmetry to it that makes modulating back to the original key seem
completely logical. It's about superimposing major keys over the
prevailing tonality more than it's about superimposing chords.
Since it's about major keys, not minor keys, starting the cycle on the
Eg.
Dm F7 |Bb Db7 |Gb A7 |Dm
This sort of "works" (you can make anything "work" if you play it with
enough conviction) but it's got a totally different flavor.
Changing all the targets of the dom7 chords to minor chords (so that you
traverse through 3 minor keys rather than major keys) instead of major
Dm F7 |Bbm Db7 |Gbm A7 |Dm
But if, in D minor, we use the cycle to traverse the major keys that are
in maj 3rd relationships with the relative major key, F, we'd get
Dm Ab7 |Db E7 |A C7 |F
All we need now is some way to get back to Dm. Playing an A7 after the F
chord serves this purpose.
It's also possible to go right to the Dm chord instead of the F chord, but
this doesn't sound as complete.
--
Joey Goldstein
http://www.joeygoldstein.com
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/joeygoldstein
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca