Guitar Tech: Truss Rod Question

[RM]

just in case there are any guitar techs still posting here, I wanted to ask if a fully tightened truss rod is undesirable when setting up a guitar. If a truss does need to be fully tightened to get lower action, does that indicate issues with the neck?

[Mark Cleary]

Post by RM
just in case there are any guitar techs still posting here, I wanted to ask if a fully tightened truss rod is undesirable when setting up a guitar. If a truss does need to be fully tightened to get lower action, does that indicate issues with the neck?

Well you don't adjust action by the truss rod. You use the truss rod to get proper relief in the neck. They can vary from just slight relief to almost straight on modern guitars depends on set up. If the truss rod is very tight but otherwise the set up is fine they may very well be ok. Otherwise there are things that can be done. Take it to a good repair person it is worth the money. I have seen too many players bring me guitars that they have messed up worse trying to fix.


Deacon Mark

[Tim]

Mark Cleary

Post by RM
just in case there are any guitar techs still posting here, I wanted to ask if a fully tightened truss rod is undesirable when setting up a guitar. If a truss does need to be fully tightened to get lower action, does that indicate issues with the neck?

Well you don't adjust action by the truss rod. You use the truss rod to get proper relief in the neck. They can vary from just slight relief to almost straight on modern guitars depends on set up. If the truss rod is very tight but otherwise the set up is fine they may very well be ok. Otherwise there are things that can be done. Take it to a good repair person it is worth the money. I have seen too many players bring me guitars that they have messed up worse trying to fix.


Deacon Mark
.........


I’ve seen Home repairs tighten them till they strip or snap. Truss nut bottom out? Add more washers. Lol!

[van]

Post by Mark Cleary

Post by RM
just in case there are any guitar techs still posting here, I wanted to ask if a fully tightened truss rod is undesirable when setting up a guitar. If a truss does need to be fully tightened to get lower action, does that indicate issues with the neck?

Well you don't adjust action by the truss rod. You use the truss rod to get proper relief in the neck. They can vary from just slight relief to almost straight on modern guitars depends on set up. If the truss rod is very tight but otherwise the set up is fine they may very well be ok. Otherwise there are things that can be done. Take it to a good repair person it is worth the money. I have seen too many players bring me guitars that they have messed up worse trying to fix.
Deacon Mark

Yeah, Deacon. One thing I've never messed around with is the truss rod on any of my guitars. I leave that up to repairmen.

[Joey Goldstein]

Post by RM
just in case there are any guitar techs still posting here, I wanted to ask if a fully tightened truss rod is undesirable when setting up a guitar. If a truss does need to be fully tightened to get lower action, does that indicate issues with the neck?

What do you mean by "fully tightened".
If you actually mean "fully tightened" then, no, a truss rod should
usually never have to be adjusted as tight as it can possibly go.

A properly set up guitar will usually involve some amount of neck relief
so that the frets above the note you're currently playing are slightly
lower and won't crap out the note.
The tension from the strings pulls the neck from the headstock to the
bridge putting a curve into the centre of the neck away from the strings.
If this curve is too much then the guitar will be very difficult to play
in the middle of the neck.
Tightening the truss rod counteracts this tension and brings the centre
of the neck back up closer to the stings.
But if you tighten it too much, the centre area will be crapping out on
the frets too.

The most common suggestion for the amount of relief is 0.010" but I
usually go a bit lower with 0.008".
This is measured as follows.
1. Tune guitar to pitch.
2. Put a capo on the 1st fret.
3. Depress the string at the highest fret usually the 22nd or 21st, etc.).
4. Measure the distance from the top of the 8th fret to the bottom of
the 6th string with a feeler gauge.
Feeler gauges are used to measure spark plug tolerances on cars and can
be bought at any auto shop.
5. Never force a truss rod or you can strip the truss rod nut/Allen key
and/or break the rod itself.
If it seems stiff, try loosening the strings before you do the adjustment.
Do only small adjustments, less than 1/4 turn, check, repeat.
Your ideal setting may take a day or 2 to take hold so recheck again in
a few days.
If you live in an area with all 4 seasons then you'll have to make
seasonal adjustments too.

[RM]

Post by Joey Goldstein

Post by RM
just in case there are any guitar techs still posting here, I wanted to ask if a fully tightened truss rod is undesirable when setting up a guitar. If a truss does need to be fully tightened to get lower action, does that indicate issues with the neck?

What do you mean by "fully tightened".
If you actually mean "fully tightened" then, no, a truss rod should
usually never have to be adjusted as tight as it can possibly go.

The words "fully tightened" appeared in the sales description of an ES 175. I've generally assumed a truss rod that can't be adjusted for less relief would be undesirable in the event of a change in string tension or if the neck is affected by changes in humidity.

Post by Joey Goldstein
A properly set up guitar will usually involve some amount of neck relief
so that the frets above the note you're currently playing are slightly
lower and won't crap out the note.
The tension from the strings pulls the neck from the headstock to the
bridge putting a curve into the centre of the neck away from the strings.
If this curve is too much then the guitar will be very difficult to play
in the middle of the neck.
Tightening the truss rod counteracts this tension and brings the centre
of the neck back up closer to the stings.
But if you tighten it too much, the centre area will be crapping out on
the frets too.
The most common suggestion for the amount of relief is 0.010" but I
usually go a bit lower with 0.008".
This is measured as follows.
1. Tune guitar to pitch.
2. Put a capo on the 1st fret.
3. Depress the string at the highest fret usually the 22nd or 21st, etc.).
4. Measure the distance from the top of the 8th fret to the bottom of
the 6th string with a feeler gauge.
Feeler gauges are used to measure spark plug tolerances on cars and can
be bought at any auto shop.
5. Never force a truss rod or you can strip the truss rod nut/Allen key
and/or break the rod itself.
If it seems stiff, try loosening the strings before you do the adjustment.
Do only small adjustments, less than 1/4 turn, check, repeat.
Your ideal setting may take a day or 2 to take hold so recheck again in
a few days.
If you live in an area with all 4 seasons then you'll have to make
seasonal adjustments too.

[Joey Goldstein]

Post by RM

Post by Joey Goldstein

Post by RM
just in case there are any guitar techs still posting here, I wanted to ask if a fully tightened truss rod is undesirable when setting up a guitar. If a truss does need to be fully tightened to get lower action, does that indicate issues with the neck?

What do you mean by "fully tightened".
If you actually mean "fully tightened" then, no, a truss rod should
usually never have to be adjusted as tight as it can possibly go.

The words "fully tightened" appeared in the sales description of an ES 175. I've generally assumed a truss rod that can't be adjusted for less relief would be undesirable in the event of a change in string tension or if the neck is affected by changes in humidity.

I've never seen that "description".
Where did you see it?
It makes no sense as stated.
What's the context?

The only purpose of a single-action truss rod is to reduce relief caused
by string tension.
If a truss rod has to be fully tightened (i.e. the truss rod nut is
tightened as much as possible) in order to achieve optimal relief, it is
a sign of a poorly made neck.

The double-action truss rod was developed so that a neck with no relief
when tuned to pitch can still achieve some relief.

Post by RM

Post by Joey Goldstein
A properly set up guitar will usually involve some amount of neck relief
so that the frets above the note you're currently playing are slightly
lower and won't crap out the note.
The tension from the strings pulls the neck from the headstock to the
bridge putting a curve into the centre of the neck away from the strings.
If this curve is too much then the guitar will be very difficult to play
in the middle of the neck.
Tightening the truss rod counteracts this tension and brings the centre
of the neck back up closer to the stings.
But if you tighten it too much, the centre area will be crapping out on
the frets too.
The most common suggestion for the amount of relief is 0.010" but I
usually go a bit lower with 0.008".
This is measured as follows.
1. Tune guitar to pitch.
2. Put a capo on the 1st fret.
3. Depress the string at the highest fret usually the 22nd or 21st, etc.).
4. Measure the distance from the top of the 8th fret to the bottom of
the 6th string with a feeler gauge.
Feeler gauges are used to measure spark plug tolerances on cars and can
be bought at any auto shop.
5. Never force a truss rod or you can strip the truss rod nut/Allen key
and/or break the rod itself.
If it seems stiff, try loosening the strings before you do the adjustment.
Do only small adjustments, less than 1/4 turn, check, repeat.
Your ideal setting may take a day or 2 to take hold so recheck again in
a few days.
If you live in an area with all 4 seasons then you'll have to make
seasonal adjustments too.

[Gerry]

Post by Joey Goldstein

Post by RM

Post by Joey Goldstein

Post by RM
just in case there are any guitar techs still posting here, I wanted to
ask if a fully tightened truss rod is undesirable when setting up a
guitar. If a truss does need to be fully tightened to get lower action,
does that indicate issues with the neck?

What do you mean by "fully tightened".
If you actually mean "fully tightened" then, no, a truss rod should
usually never have to be adjusted as tight as it can possibly go.

The words "fully tightened" appeared in the sales description of an ES
175. I've generally assumed a truss rod that can't be adjusted for less
relief would be undesirable in the event of a change in string tension
or if the neck is affected by changes in humidity.

I've never seen that "description".
Where did you see it?
It makes no sense as stated.
What's the context?

I had a strat copy (Ibanez Road Star II). I had a luthier glue a block
of wood in the back to stabilize the vibrato tail piece, and install a
stock GK3 in it. When I got it back, in fine working order, he asked me
where it was from. I said I bought and owned it in Dallas and he told
me "perhaps it's the humidity differences. Anyway, you can't tighten
the truss rod any more. It's all the way."

Something like that. I moved on and 30 years later sold the guitar. I
never had any issues with the neck.

[Joey Goldstein]

Post by Joey Goldstein

Post by RM

Post by Joey Goldstein

Post by RM
just in case there are any guitar techs still posting here, I
wanted to ask if a fully tightened truss rod is undesirable when
setting up a guitar. If a truss does need to be fully tightened to
get lower action, does that indicate issues with the neck?

What do you mean by "fully tightened".
If you actually mean "fully tightened" then, no, a truss rod should
usually never have to be adjusted as tight as it can possibly go.

The words "fully tightened" appeared in the sales description of an
ES 175. I've generally assumed a truss rod that can't be adjusted for
less relief would be undesirable in the event of a change in string
tension or if the neck is affected by changes in humidity.

I've never seen that "description".
Where did you see it?
It makes no sense as stated.
What's the context?

I had a strat copy (Ibanez Road Star II).  I had a luthier glue a block
of wood in the back to stabilize the vibrato tail piece, and install a
stock GK3 in it. When I got it back, in fine working order, he asked me
where it was from.  I said I bought and owned it in Dallas and he told
me "perhaps it's the humidity differences. Anyway, you can't tighten the
truss rod any more. It's all the way."
Something like that.  I moved on and 30 years later sold the guitar.  I
never had any issues with the neck.

Well that happens sometimes, especially when you try to put heavy
strings on Fender necks.
Usually it's because they don't install the truss rod nut properly.
Sometimes a metal spacer can be thrown in between the nut and the top of
the rod that'll allow for a bit more turn from the nut.

But this is out of context with the OP's comments.

[van]

Post by Joey Goldstein

Post by Joey Goldstein

Post by RM

Post by Joey Goldstein

Post by RM
just in case there are any guitar techs still posting here, I
wanted to ask if a fully tightened truss rod is undesirable when
setting up a guitar. If a truss does need to be fully tightened to
get lower action, does that indicate issues with the neck?

What do you mean by "fully tightened".
If you actually mean "fully tightened" then, no, a truss rod should
usually never have to be adjusted as tight as it can possibly go.

The words "fully tightened" appeared in the sales description of an
ES 175. I've generally assumed a truss rod that can't be adjusted for
less relief would be undesirable in the event of a change in string
tension or if the neck is affected by changes in humidity.

I've never seen that "description".
Where did you see it?
It makes no sense as stated.
What's the context?

I had a strat copy (Ibanez Road Star II).  I had a luthier glue a block
of wood in the back to stabilize the vibrato tail piece, and install a
stock GK3 in it. When I got it back, in fine working order, he asked me
where it was from.  I said I bought and owned it in Dallas and he told
me "perhaps it's the humidity differences. Anyway, you can't tighten the
truss rod any more. It's all the way."
Something like that.  I moved on and 30 years later sold the guitar.  I
never had any issues with the neck.

Well that happens sometimes, especially when you try to put heavy
strings on Fender necks.
Usually it's because they don't install the truss rod nut properly.
Sometimes a metal spacer can be thrown in between the nut and the top of
the rod that'll allow for a bit more turn from the nut.
But this is out of context with the OP's comments.

Joey,
I just finished 30 shows of "Mama Mia". What's left for me after doing that?

[Anon Anon]

Post by van
Joey,
I just finished 30 shows of "Mama Mia". What's left for me after doing that?

Buy an island in the Pacific?

[van]

Post by Anon Anon

Post by van
Joey,
I just finished 30 shows of "Mama Mia". What's left for me after doing that?

Buy an island in the Pacific?

LOL! I was counting on you to steer me in the right direction!
I just started "Mame" yesterday, and the conductor hasn't even criticized my awful banjo playing... yet.

[RM]

Post by Joey Goldstein

Post by RM

Post by Joey Goldstein

Post by RM
just in case there are any guitar techs still posting here, I wanted to ask if a fully tightened truss rod is undesirable when setting up a guitar. If a truss does need to be fully tightened to get lower action, does that indicate issues with the neck?

What do you mean by "fully tightened".
If you actually mean "fully tightened" then, no, a truss rod should
usually never have to be adjusted as tight as it can possibly go.

The words "fully tightened" appeared in the sales description of an ES 175. I've generally assumed a truss rod that can't be adjusted for less relief would be undesirable in the event of a change in string tension or if the neck is affected by changes in humidity.

I've never seen that "description".
Where did you see it?
It makes no sense as stated.
What's the context?
The only purpose of a single-action truss rod is to reduce relief caused
by string tension.
If a truss rod has to be fully tightened (i.e. the truss rod nut is
tightened as much as possible) in order to achieve optimal relief, it is
a sign of a poorly made neck.
The double-action truss rod was developed so that a neck with no relief
when tuned to pitch can still achieve some relief.

Post by RM

Post by Joey Goldstein
A properly set up guitar will usually involve some amount of neck relief
so that the frets above the note you're currently playing are slightly
lower and won't crap out the note.
The tension from the strings pulls the neck from the headstock to the
bridge putting a curve into the centre of the neck away from the strings.
If this curve is too much then the guitar will be very difficult to play
in the middle of the neck.
Tightening the truss rod counteracts this tension and brings the centre
of the neck back up closer to the stings.
But if you tighten it too much, the centre area will be crapping out on
the frets too.
The most common suggestion for the amount of relief is 0.010" but I
usually go a bit lower with 0.008".
This is measured as follows.
1. Tune guitar to pitch.
2. Put a capo on the 1st fret.
3. Depress the string at the highest fret usually the 22nd or 21st, etc.).
4. Measure the distance from the top of the 8th fret to the bottom of
the 6th string with a feeler gauge.
Feeler gauges are used to measure spark plug tolerances on cars and can
be bought at any auto shop.
5. Never force a truss rod or you can strip the truss rod nut/Allen key
and/or break the rod itself.
If it seems stiff, try loosening the strings before you do the adjustment.
Do only small adjustments, less than 1/4 turn, check, repeat.
Your ideal setting may take a day or 2 to take hold so recheck again in
a few days.
If you live in an area with all 4 seasons then you'll have to make
seasonal adjustments too.

Here's a link. In the Description section under tech notes it says the following:

Tech Notes: Plays well with low action and minimal fret wear on wide, medium height frets. Neck is straight with truss rod tightened all the way. Serial number dates to 1984.

https://www.chicagomusicexchange.com/listing/gibson-es-175-natural-1984/23836373

So back to my original question if a truss rod is "tightened all the way" does that indicate a problem with the neck or with the truss rod?

[m***@gmail.com]

Post by RM

Post by Joey Goldstein

Post by RM

Post by Joey Goldstein

Post by RM
just in case there are any guitar techs still posting here, I wanted to ask if a fully tightened truss rod is undesirable when setting up a guitar. If a truss does need to be fully tightened to get lower action, does that indicate issues with the neck?

What do you mean by "fully tightened".
If you actually mean "fully tightened" then, no, a truss rod should
usually never have to be adjusted as tight as it can possibly go.

The words "fully tightened" appeared in the sales description of an ES 175. I've generally assumed a truss rod that can't be adjusted for less relief would be undesirable in the event of a change in string tension or if the neck is affected by changes in humidity.

I've never seen that "description".
Where did you see it?
It makes no sense as stated.
What's the context?
The only purpose of a single-action truss rod is to reduce relief caused
by string tension.
If a truss rod has to be fully tightened (i.e. the truss rod nut is
tightened as much as possible) in order to achieve optimal relief, it is
a sign of a poorly made neck.
The double-action truss rod was developed so that a neck with no relief
when tuned to pitch can still achieve some relief.

Post by RM

Post by Joey Goldstein
A properly set up guitar will usually involve some amount of neck relief
so that the frets above the note you're currently playing are slightly
lower and won't crap out the note.
The tension from the strings pulls the neck from the headstock to the
bridge putting a curve into the centre of the neck away from the strings.
If this curve is too much then the guitar will be very difficult to play
in the middle of the neck.
Tightening the truss rod counteracts this tension and brings the centre
of the neck back up closer to the stings.
But if you tighten it too much, the centre area will be crapping out on
the frets too.
The most common suggestion for the amount of relief is 0.010" but I
usually go a bit lower with 0.008".
This is measured as follows.
1. Tune guitar to pitch.
2. Put a capo on the 1st fret.
3. Depress the string at the highest fret usually the 22nd or 21st, etc.).
4. Measure the distance from the top of the 8th fret to the bottom of
the 6th string with a feeler gauge.
Feeler gauges are used to measure spark plug tolerances on cars and can
be bought at any auto shop.
5. Never force a truss rod or you can strip the truss rod nut/Allen key
and/or break the rod itself.
If it seems stiff, try loosening the strings before you do the adjustment.
Do only small adjustments, less than 1/4 turn, check, repeat.
Your ideal setting may take a day or 2 to take hold so recheck again in
a few days.
If you live in an area with all 4 seasons then you'll have to make
seasonal adjustments too.

Tech Notes: Plays well with low action and minimal fret wear on wide, medium height frets. Neck is straight with truss rod tightened all the way. Serial number dates to 1984.
https://www.chicagomusicexchange.com/listing/gibson-es-175-natural-1984/23836373
So back to my original question if a truss rod is "tightened all the way" does that indicate a problem with the neck or with the truss rod?

It is possible it could be one or the other, or a combination of the two. It makes no difference in the end it works out the same. I would say normally the next has take too much bow and the truss rod cannot move any more. Frankly I deal with this all the time in repairs and most of the time something can be done. Sent it to me I fix it.


Deacon Mark

[Joey Goldstein]

Post by RM

Post by Joey Goldstein

Post by RM

Post by Joey Goldstein

Post by RM
just in case there are any guitar techs still posting here, I wanted to ask if a fully tightened truss rod is undesirable when setting up a guitar. If a truss does need to be fully tightened to get lower action, does that indicate issues with the neck?

What do you mean by "fully tightened".
If you actually mean "fully tightened" then, no, a truss rod should
usually never have to be adjusted as tight as it can possibly go.

The words "fully tightened" appeared in the sales description of an ES 175. I've generally assumed a truss rod that can't be adjusted for less relief would be undesirable in the event of a change in string tension or if the neck is affected by changes in humidity.

I've never seen that "description".
Where did you see it?
It makes no sense as stated.
What's the context?
The only purpose of a single-action truss rod is to reduce relief caused
by string tension.
If a truss rod has to be fully tightened (i.e. the truss rod nut is
tightened as much as possible) in order to achieve optimal relief, it is
a sign of a poorly made neck.
The double-action truss rod was developed so that a neck with no relief
when tuned to pitch can still achieve some relief.

Post by RM

Post by Joey Goldstein
A properly set up guitar will usually involve some amount of neck relief
so that the frets above the note you're currently playing are slightly
lower and won't crap out the note.
The tension from the strings pulls the neck from the headstock to the
bridge putting a curve into the centre of the neck away from the strings.
If this curve is too much then the guitar will be very difficult to play
in the middle of the neck.
Tightening the truss rod counteracts this tension and brings the centre
of the neck back up closer to the stings.
But if you tighten it too much, the centre area will be crapping out on
the frets too.
The most common suggestion for the amount of relief is 0.010" but I
usually go a bit lower with 0.008".
This is measured as follows.
1. Tune guitar to pitch.
2. Put a capo on the 1st fret.
3. Depress the string at the highest fret usually the 22nd or 21st, etc.).
4. Measure the distance from the top of the 8th fret to the bottom of
the 6th string with a feeler gauge.
Feeler gauges are used to measure spark plug tolerances on cars and can
be bought at any auto shop.
5. Never force a truss rod or you can strip the truss rod nut/Allen key
and/or break the rod itself.
If it seems stiff, try loosening the strings before you do the adjustment.
Do only small adjustments, less than 1/4 turn, check, repeat.
Your ideal setting may take a day or 2 to take hold so recheck again in
a few days.
If you live in an area with all 4 seasons then you'll have to make
seasonal adjustments too.

Tech Notes: Plays well with low action and minimal fret wear on wide, medium height frets. Neck is straight with truss rod tightened all the way. Serial number dates to 1984.
https://www.chicagomusicexchange.com/listing/gibson-es-175-natural-1984/23836373
So back to my original question if a truss rod is "tightened all the way" does that indicate a problem with the neck or with the truss rod?

Then yes. There may be a problem with the truss rod on that guitar if it
*has to be* tightened all the way for a straight neck.
But the neck shouldn't be straight anyway.
If loosening the rod gives you proper relief, as it should, then it's
probably fine.
Also depends on the gauge of strings being used.
No way to tell w/o examining the guitar.