Discussion:
Bergonzi's Jazz Lines Vol. 3
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funkifized
2019-11-30 05:15:28 UTC
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Anyone work through this book? It's mainly Bergonzi's take on the Bebop scale, with tunes derivative of Bebop tunes such as Blues For Alice, Joy Spring, etc. For minor key tunes, he uses IV7b9b13. Any idea as to why he prefers this to an altered dominant? No lowered 5th or raised 11th? Apparently he's preferring The Harmonic Minor scale?

For example, he's got Cm69 Bebop scale, leading to F7b9b13. Why?
Gerry
2019-11-30 06:26:25 UTC
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Post by funkifized
Anyone work through this book? It's mainly Bergonzi's take on the Bebop
scale, with tunes derivative of Bebop tunes such as Blues For Alice,
Joy Spring, etc. For minor key tunes, he uses IV7b9b13. Any idea as to
why he prefers this to an altered dominant? No lowered 5th or raised
11th? Apparently he's preferring The Harmonic Minor scale?
For example, he's got Cm69 Bebop scale, leading to F7b9b13. Why?
Can you cite the page numbers that's sparking the confustion?
funkifized
2019-12-01 04:37:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gerry
Post by funkifized
Anyone work through this book? It's mainly Bergonzi's take on the Bebop
scale, with tunes derivative of Bebop tunes such as Blues For Alice,
Joy Spring, etc. For minor key tunes, he uses IV7b9b13. Any idea as to
why he prefers this to an altered dominant? No lowered 5th or raised
11th? Apparently he's preferring The Harmonic Minor scale?
For example, he's got Cm69 Bebop scale, leading to F7b9b13. Why?
Can you cite the page numbers that's sparking the confustion?
Chapter 2, p. 16. "Tonic Minor and Dom7b9b13 Bop Scales"

The larger exercise goes through the changes that the reader is supposed work bebop scales over:

||Cm69 / / /|F7b9b13 / / /|Bbm69 / / /|Eb7b9b13 / / /|Abm69 / / /|Db7b9b13 /
etc.
Anon Anon
2019-12-01 16:42:16 UTC
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Post by funkifized
Post by Gerry
Post by funkifized
Anyone work through this book? It's mainly Bergonzi's take on the Bebop
scale, with tunes derivative of Bebop tunes such as Blues For Alice,
Joy Spring, etc. For minor key tunes, he uses IV7b9b13. Any idea as to
why he prefers this to an altered dominant? No lowered 5th or raised
11th? Apparently he's preferring The Harmonic Minor scale?
For example, he's got Cm69 Bebop scale, leading to F7b9b13. Why?
Can you cite the page numbers that's sparking the confustion?
Chapter 2, p. 16. "Tonic Minor and Dom7b9b13 Bop Scales"
||Cm69 / / /|F7b9b13 / / /|Bbm69 / / /|Eb7b9b13 / / /|Abm69 / / /|Db7b9b13 /
etc.
Well, there ya go.
Each of those dom7 chords is V7b9 in the next key.
This is the common way that V7 chords are coloured in minor keys, ie.
with b9s and b13s.

As far as chord-scale relationships for those chords go, I'd be thinking
of [First/default choice is on the bottom. 2nd, 3rd, etc. choices above.]:

3rd mode of Db harmonic major
F altered
Mel Min F Mix b2b6
Dor The F7b9b13 scale (as detailed earlier.
Cm6 |F7b9 |Etc.
funkifized
2019-12-01 18:30:42 UTC
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So, should all the m7b5-->V7b9 changes in the Real Book really show V7b9b13 instead?
Anon Anon
2019-12-02 02:49:11 UTC
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Post by funkifized
So, should all the m7b5-->V7b9 changes in the Real Book really show V7b9b13 instead?
Huh?
If anything, every dom7 chord should be listed w/o any extensions at all.
Jazz people like to colour their chords their own way.

And when you see an X7b9b13 chord symbol, you're under no obligation to
play or even top try to play all 6 of those notes.
If anything, that chord symbol is telling an improviser to not play maj
9ths or maj 13ths.

Again, the most common colouration of a V7b9 chord in a minor key is
with b9s and b13s because they are both diatonic notes in the key.

The quality of any IIm chord involved, if any, is mostly irrelevant to
how you'll hear the V7 chord.
funkifized
2019-12-02 05:33:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anon Anon
Post by funkifized
So, should all the m7b5-->V7b9 changes in the Real Book really show V7b9b13 instead?
Huh?
If anything, every dom7 chord should be listed w/o any extensions at all.
Jazz people like to colour their chords their own way.
And when you see an X7b9b13 chord symbol, you're under no obligation to
play or even top try to play all 6 of those notes.
If anything, that chord symbol is telling an improviser to not play maj
9ths or maj 13ths.
Again, the most common colouration of a V7b9 chord in a minor key is
with b9s and b13s because they are both diatonic notes in the key.
The quality of any IIm chord involved, if any, is mostly irrelevant to
how you'll hear the V7 chord.
Hmmm, yeah, I get that. Why bother listing out the m7b5, then? Shouldn't the improviser figure that out, too?
Anon Anon
2019-12-02 14:03:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by funkifized
Post by Anon Anon
Post by funkifized
So, should all the m7b5-->V7b9 changes in the Real Book really show V7b9b13 instead?
Huh?
If anything, every dom7 chord should be listed w/o any extensions at all.
Jazz people like to colour their chords their own way.
And when you see an X7b9b13 chord symbol, you're under no obligation to
play or even top try to play all 6 of those notes.
If anything, that chord symbol is telling an improviser to not play maj
9ths or maj 13ths.
Again, the most common colouration of a V7b9 chord in a minor key is
with b9s and b13s because they are both diatonic notes in the key.
The quality of any IIm chord involved, if any, is mostly irrelevant to
how you'll hear the V7 chord.
Hmmm, yeah, I get that. Why bother listing out the m7b5, then? Shouldn't the improviser figure that out, too?
Sometimes.
Bird swapped out IIm7 and IIm7b5 feeely.
But usually guys will conform to the quality of the II chord.

Mionor key harmony is much richer than major key harmony because it is
derived from 3 different minor scales scales (sometimes more) whereas
major key harmony is based on just one scale.

In a minor key II-V-Im progression the II chord can be:
IIdidm, IIm, IIm7 or IIm7b5
funkifized
2019-12-02 05:51:57 UTC
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Post by Anon Anon
Post by funkifized
Post by Gerry
Post by funkifized
Anyone work through this book? It's mainly Bergonzi's take on the Bebop
scale, with tunes derivative of Bebop tunes such as Blues For Alice,
Joy Spring, etc. For minor key tunes, he uses IV7b9b13. Any idea as to
why he prefers this to an altered dominant? No lowered 5th or raised
11th? Apparently he's preferring The Harmonic Minor scale?
For example, he's got Cm69 Bebop scale, leading to F7b9b13. Why?
Can you cite the page numbers that's sparking the confustion?
Chapter 2, p. 16. "Tonic Minor and Dom7b9b13 Bop Scales"
||Cm69 / / /|F7b9b13 / / /|Bbm69 / / /|Eb7b9b13 / / /|Abm69 / / /|Db7b9b13 /
etc.
Well, there ya go.
Each of those dom7 chords is V7b9 in the next key.
This is the common way that V7 chords are coloured in minor keys, ie.
with b9s and b13s.
As far as chord-scale relationships for those chords go, I'd be thinking
3rd mode of Db harmonic major
F altered
Mel Min F Mix b2b6
Dor The F7b9b13 scale (as detailed earlier.
Cm6 |F7b9 |Etc.
What's the difference between F7b9b13 and FMixb2b6?
Anon Anon
2019-12-02 14:07:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by funkifized
Post by Anon Anon
Post by funkifized
Post by Gerry
Post by funkifized
Anyone work through this book? It's mainly Bergonzi's take on the Bebop
scale, with tunes derivative of Bebop tunes such as Blues For Alice,
Joy Spring, etc. For minor key tunes, he uses IV7b9b13. Any idea as to
why he prefers this to an altered dominant? No lowered 5th or raised
11th? Apparently he's preferring The Harmonic Minor scale?
For example, he's got Cm69 Bebop scale, leading to F7b9b13. Why?
Can you cite the page numbers that's sparking the confustion?
Chapter 2, p. 16. "Tonic Minor and Dom7b9b13 Bop Scales"
||Cm69 / / /|F7b9b13 / / /|Bbm69 / / /|Eb7b9b13 / / /|Abm69 / / /|Db7b9b13 /
etc.
Well, there ya go.
Each of those dom7 chords is V7b9 in the next key.
This is the common way that V7 chords are coloured in minor keys, ie.
with b9s and b13s.
As far as chord-scale relationships for those chords go, I'd be thinking
3rd mode of Db harmonic major
F altered
Mel Min F Mix b2b6
Dor The F7b9b13 scale (as detailed earlier.
Cm6 |F7b9 |Etc.
What's the difference between F7b9b13 and FMixb2b6?
The scale contains a Bb.
The chord doesn't.
Other than that they are two different arrangements of then exact same
pitch collection, one arranged in steps
F Gb A Bb C Db Eb
and one arranged in 3rds.
F A C Eb Gb (C) Db
funkifized
2019-12-05 15:33:02 UTC
Permalink
Yeah, I guess the "dominant in the next key" is the answer. It's unusual because he uses an exercise of Cm69 to F7b9b13 for Bebop scale example: https://photos.app.goo.gl/EtFFv3ArfVgTwkfn7

but then puts it over the bigger exercise that runs through the different keys: https://photos.app.goo.gl/epHGJQSECckBQfx8A

A little confusing in how it's presented, I guess.

Joey Goldstein
2019-11-30 16:03:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by funkifized
Anyone work through this book? It's mainly Bergonzi's take on the Bebop scale, with tunes derivative of Bebop tunes such as Blues For Alice, Joy Spring, etc. For minor key tunes, he uses IV7b9b13. Any idea as to why he prefers this to an altered dominant? No lowered 5th or raised 11th? Apparently he's preferring The Harmonic Minor scale?
For example, he's got Cm69 Bebop scale, leading to F7b9b13. Why?
As a writer, he's free to use any colour he wants for a IV chord.

But I don't understand.
Does he use F7b9b13 on several progressions that are in C minor?
Are these all minor blues progressions?

You mention Blues For Alice and Joy Spring.
Are these all contrafacts on the changes of standard tunes?
If so, which minor key tunes are we talking about?
Titles please.

Could this just be a typo for G7b9b13?

As far as usage of the altered dominant chord symbol and the altered
dominant scale is concerned, it's a bit of a pet peeve of mine.
Most jazz educators seem to teaching the altered scale as the default
scale of choice on dom7b9 chords these days.
But that's not the way I learned it or the way I hear it.
In my experience, most times that a writer writes the X7alt chord
symbol, what he/she really want to hear is just a dom7#9#5 chord and
somebody else in the band is often given the P5th or the maj 13th of the
chord to play.
Many times that the X7alt chord symbol is used, the #11/b5 of the alt
scale, if emphasized, just sounds like ass.

So, what that chord symbol was supposed to mean was that it was a shell
voicing of a dom7 chord (1 3 b7)
and
IF the player was going to add a 5th to the chord it would be an altered
5th (b5 or #5), never the P5th
and
IF the player was going to add a 9th it would be b9 or #9, never the maj 9th
and
IF the player was going to add an 11th to the chord it would be a #11
(aka b5), never the P11.
and
IF the player was going to add 13th to the chord it would be a b13 (aka
#5), never a maj 13th.
But many, probably most, writers don't use it that way.

And most of the time the chord-scale relationship that best fits these
chords is what they called "the b9 scale" at Berklee.
It's basically an 8-note version of the 5th mode of harmonic minor.
So, for G7b9, it would be:
G Ab Bb C D Eb F |G

Essentially it just adds a #9 to the 7-note scale (G Ab B C D Eb F |G)
so it has both the b9 and the #9.
It's called "the b9 scale" because it's the scale most closely related
to a dom7b9 chord, especially as V7 in a minor key.

It can also be seen as a mode of one of the bebop scales:
Eb F G Ab Bb B C D |Eb
Barry Harris calls that one, the Eb6 dim scale, I believe.
funkifized
2019-12-01 05:19:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joey Goldstein
Post by funkifized
Anyone work through this book? It's mainly Bergonzi's take on the Bebop scale, with tunes derivative of Bebop tunes such as Blues For Alice, Joy Spring, etc. For minor key tunes, he uses IV7b9b13. Any idea as to why he prefers this to an altered dominant? No lowered 5th or raised 11th? Apparently he's preferring The Harmonic Minor scale?
For example, he's got Cm69 Bebop scale, leading to F7b9b13. Why?
As a writer, he's free to use any colour he wants for a IV chord.
But I don't understand.
Does he use F7b9b13 on several progressions that are in C minor?
Are these all minor blues progressions?
They're chord progression exercises:
||Cm69 / / /|F7b9b13 / / /|Bbm69/ / /|Eb7b9b13/ / /|Abm69/ / /|Db7b9b13/ / /| etc.
Post by Joey Goldstein
You mention Blues For Alice and Joy Spring.
Are these all contrafacts on the changes of standard tunes?
If so, which minor key tunes are we talking about?
Titles please.
He uses "tunes" to practice the appropriate bebop scales over. First minor "tune" is called "Alice", with no melody, but clearly the changes are stolen generally from "Blues For Alice":

||FMaj7/ / /|Em7b5/ A7b9b13/|Dm7/ G7/|Cm7/ F7/|Bb7/ / /|Bbm7/Eb7/|Am7/D7/|Abm7/Db7/|
|Gm7/C7/|C#m7/F#7/|FMaj7/ / /|Gm7/ C7/||
Post by Joey Goldstein
Could this just be a typo for G7b9b13?
As far as usage of the altered dominant chord symbol and the altered
dominant scale is concerned, it's a bit of a pet peeve of mine.
Most jazz educators seem to teaching the altered scale as the default
scale of choice on dom7b9 chords these days.
But that's not the way I learned it or the way I hear it.
In my experience, most times that a writer writes the X7alt chord
symbol, what he/she really want to hear is just a dom7#9#5 chord and
somebody else in the band is often given the P5th or the maj 13th of the
chord to play.
Many times that the X7alt chord symbol is used, the #11/b5 of the alt
scale, if emphasized, just sounds like ass.
What makes you feel that the #11/b5 sounds bad? Is it because it rubs awkwardly against the root of the tonic chord?
Post by Joey Goldstein
So, what that chord symbol was supposed to mean was that it was a shell
voicing of a dom7 chord (1 3 b7)
and
IF the player was going to add a 5th to the chord it would be an altered
5th (b5 or #5), never the P5th
and
IF the player was going to add a 9th it would be b9 or #9, never the maj 9th
and
IF the player was going to add an 11th to the chord it would be a #11
(aka b5), never the P11.
and
IF the player was going to add 13th to the chord it would be a b13 (aka
#5), never a maj 13th.
But many, probably most, writers don't use it that way.
And most of the time the chord-scale relationship that best fits these
chords is what they called "the b9 scale" at Berklee.
It's basically an 8-note version of the 5th mode of harmonic minor.
G Ab Bb C D Eb F |G
Essentially it just adds a #9 to the 7-note scale (G Ab B C D Eb F |G)
so it has both the b9 and the #9.
It's called "the b9 scale" because it's the scale most closely related
to a dom7b9 chord, especially as V7 in a minor key.
Eb F G Ab Bb B C D |Eb
Barry Harris calls that one, the Eb6 dim scale, I believe.
I don't remember that "b9 scale" from Berklee, but I might have forgotten about it. I thought "dominant/diminished" was the scale of choice for the V7b9 in the minor key. I guess I've answered my own question here. Using the altered scale would yield G, Ab, Bb, B, Db, Eb, and F, which I guess would introduce the Ab and Db on the tonic Cm chord that doesn't really work with the Cm chord, but the "dominant/diminished", "half/whole", or "symmetrical diminished" scale is a bit awkward, with it's Ab, Db, and E natural notes that rub against the Cm chord badly.
Anon Anon
2019-12-01 16:53:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by funkifized
Post by Joey Goldstein
Post by funkifized
Anyone work through this book? It's mainly Bergonzi's take on the Bebop scale, with tunes derivative of Bebop tunes such as Blues For Alice, Joy Spring, etc. For minor key tunes, he uses IV7b9b13. Any idea as to why he prefers this to an altered dominant? No lowered 5th or raised 11th? Apparently he's preferring The Harmonic Minor scale?
For example, he's got Cm69 Bebop scale, leading to F7b9b13. Why?
As a writer, he's free to use any colour he wants for a IV chord.
But I don't understand.
Does he use F7b9b13 on several progressions that are in C minor?
Are these all minor blues progressions?
||Cm69 / / /|F7b9b13 / / /|Bbm69/ / /|Eb7b9b13/ / /|Abm69/ / /|Db7b9b13/ / /| etc.
Post by Joey Goldstein
You mention Blues For Alice and Joy Spring.
Are these all contrafacts on the changes of standard tunes?
If so, which minor key tunes are we talking about?
Titles please.
||FMaj7/ / /|Em7b5/ A7b9b13/|Dm7/ G7/|Cm7/ F7/|Bb7/ / /|Bbm7/Eb7/|Am7/D7/|Abm7/Db7/|
|Gm7/C7/|C#m7/F#7/|FMaj7/ / /|Gm7/ C7/||
Post by Joey Goldstein
Could this just be a typo for G7b9b13?
As far as usage of the altered dominant chord symbol and the altered
dominant scale is concerned, it's a bit of a pet peeve of mine.
Most jazz educators seem to teaching the altered scale as the default
scale of choice on dom7b9 chords these days.
But that's not the way I learned it or the way I hear it.
In my experience, most times that a writer writes the X7alt chord
symbol, what he/she really want to hear is just a dom7#9#5 chord and
somebody else in the band is often given the P5th or the maj 13th of the
chord to play.
Many times that the X7alt chord symbol is used, the #11/b5 of the alt
scale, if emphasized, just sounds like ass.
What makes you feel that the #11/b5 sounds bad? Is it because it rubs awkwardly against the root of the tonic chord?
Because on a V7 chord, it's the one extension that can not be seen as
being derived either from the minior key or the parallel major key.
E.g
On G7:
A, C and E can be seen as coming from the key scale of C major, aka the
c major scale.
Ab, Bb, and Eb can be seen as coming from the key scale for C minor, aka
the c natural minor scale.
A, C and Eb can be seen as coming from the c melodic minor scale.
Db can not be seen this way unless you consider it to be borrowed from C
Phrygian, whic IS *a minir scale* of sorts, but thaqt analysis is a stretch.
At any rate, in my experience that note always feels like an outlier to me.
There are two main ways *I* treat it.
1. Lay into it and emphasize it so that it's hearda s part of the chord.
2. Skirt past it and don't emphasize it.
Post by funkifized
Post by Joey Goldstein
So, what that chord symbol was supposed to mean was that it was a shell
voicing of a dom7 chord (1 3 b7)
and
IF the player was going to add a 5th to the chord it would be an altered
5th (b5 or #5), never the P5th
and
IF the player was going to add a 9th it would be b9 or #9, never the maj 9th
and
IF the player was going to add an 11th to the chord it would be a #11
(aka b5), never the P11.
and
IF the player was going to add 13th to the chord it would be a b13 (aka
#5), never a maj 13th.
But many, probably most, writers don't use it that way.
And most of the time the chord-scale relationship that best fits these
chords is what they called "the b9 scale" at Berklee.
It's basically an 8-note version of the 5th mode of harmonic minor.
G Ab Bb C D Eb F |G
Essentially it just adds a #9 to the 7-note scale (G Ab B C D Eb F |G)
so it has both the b9 and the #9.
It's called "the b9 scale" because it's the scale most closely related
to a dom7b9 chord, especially as V7 in a minor key.
Eb F G Ab Bb B C D |Eb
Barry Harris calls that one, the Eb6 dim scale, I believe.
I don't remember that "b9 scale" from Berklee, but I might have forgotten about it. I thought "dominant/diminished" was the scale of choice for the V7b9 in the minor key. I guess I've answered my own question here. Using the altered scale would yield G, Ab, Bb, B, Db, Eb, and F, which I guess would introduce the Ab and Db on the tonic Cm chord that doesn't really work with the Cm chord, but the "dominant/diminished", "half/whole", or "symmetrical diminished" scale is a bit awkward, with it's Ab, Db, and E natural notes that rub against the Cm chord badly.
Dominant diminished (1 b9 #9 3 #11 5 13) does not have the b13 of the
chord symbol.
And in a minor key, that maj 13 on the V7 chord is the maj 3rd of the
key, a real outlier.

And there is no Db in the C nat min scale which is the scale that most
folks traditionally associate with a tonic Im triad or Im7 chord.
(Im6 is different and is usually associated with dorian or mel min.).)
I.e. The Db would normally be confined to being used on the V7 chord.
funkifized
2019-12-01 18:39:10 UTC
Permalink
So, you're not a fan of the symmetrical diminished-over-dominant sound? I've been checking out a lot of Robben Ford's usage of it, and he seems to like it a lot.
Anon Anon
2019-12-02 02:53:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by funkifized
So, you're not a fan of the symmetrical diminished-over-dominant sound? I've been checking out a lot of Robben Ford's usage of it, and he seems to like it a lot.
I never said that either.

But *in a minor key* that scale introduces a maj 3rd into the mix.
E.g. The G half-whole dim scale has an E nat in it.
It's the 13th on that chord.
E nat is kind of an outlier in the key of C minor.
That doesn't mean that we can't use this chord-scale relationship here,
it just means that that note on G7, in this key, can be problematic if
you're not careful how you use it.

That scale works better on G13b9 in C *major* because now E is a
diatonic note.
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