Peter Sprague

Post by DaSilva
I've always felt Peter Sprague should be a lot more famous than he is.
I"ve seen him in concert a couple of times, he's brilliant.
His take on Here, There & Everywhere is really tasty, in my opinion.
http://youtu.be/44Kr5hojEm0

Peter lives near hear in San Diego. He is an artist of seemingly
unlimited scope. I sometimes wonder at his diminished exposure
nationally and sort of concluded that he decided many years ago to live
a quiet life in music and avoid the noise and misery of touring and
promotion and all the rest.

He is a fantastic player...

van

2019-01-17 18:31:31 UTC

Yeah, Peter's a great player, and a very cool guy. I 'spoke'with him online, and he was very helpful.I've bought all his records, and they're pretty unusual. They seem more spiritually oriented than straight-ahead jazz, kind of in the Coltrane bag, but on the records I've got where he's a sideman, he can play straight-ahead stuff with the best of them.he plays a lot of acoustic guitar on them.
I just bought one he did with Bill Mays, Bob Magnusson and Jim Plank in a band they called Road Work Ahead named "Night and Day' that I'm looking forward to listening to.

He doesn't play notes on two adjacent strings that are on the same fret using the same finger on his LH, because it sounds too muddy. He uses a different finger for each of the notes.
So when he plays fourths on two different strings, he'll never use the same finger to play them. The same thing with major thirds on the G and B strings.
He does a lot of production work for different artists in Spragueland, his own studio.
His main influences are Trane and Chick Corea.

van

2019-01-20 19:16:42 UTC

Yeah, Peter's a great player, and a very cool guy. I 'spoke'with him online, and he was very helpful.I've bought all his records, and they're pretty unusual. They seem more spiritually oriented than straight-ahead jazz, kind of in the Coltrane bag, but on the records I've got where he's a sideman, he can play straight-ahead stuff with the best of them.he plays a lot of acoustic guitar on them.
I just bought one he did with Bill Mays, Bob Magnusson and Jim Plank in a band they called Road Work Ahead named "Night and Day' that I'm looking forward to listening to.
He doesn't play notes on two adjacent strings that are on the same fret using the same finger on his LH, because it sounds too muddy. He uses a different finger for each of the notes.
So when he plays fourths on two different strings, he'll never use the same finger to play them. The same thing with major thirds on the G and B strings.
He does a lot of production work for different artists in Spragueland, his own studio.
His main influences are Trane and Chick Corea.

I'm interested in what people think of Peter's method of fingering.
Is it worth abandoning the technique of 'rolling' one finger, or barring it to play lines with fourths or even minor 7ths so that the notes won't run into each other AND so that you don't "ground yourself in that area. The fingers and the whole hand position have much more strength when they are in an arched position, compared to when thry are flattened down".
He advises to "Keep fingers on their tips" at all times", when playing single lines.
Does this make a difference to you when you hear a player NOT do this, as opposed to following PS' fingering method.
I was discussing this on another website and someone sent me an entire re-fingering of "Freedom Jazz Dance" using PS' method of fingering it.
I'll try to post it here, if I can overcome my incredible incompetence at doing such things...;')

Gerry

2019-01-20 19:57:50 UTC

Every trade-off comes with advantages and liabilities. I roll my
fingers to get a specific line working, sometimes it's
easier--sometimes it's not.

The fingers and the whole hand position have much more strength when
they are in an arched position, compared to when thry are flattened
down".

I agree completely, nevertheless certain lines demand certain
approaches. I think the logic is essentially the right place to
start--and abandon when when practical applications don't readily apply.

He advises to "Keep fingers on their tips" at all times", when playing single lines.
Does this make a difference to you when you hear a player NOT do this,
as opposed to following PS' fingering method.

Me, I don't care what a player does, but as with piano, arch fingers
and finger-tip attack is an important place to start. It's much more
difficult to play flat-fingered and tipless and then shift to
finger-top only when it is demanded.

I was discussing this on another website and someone sent me an entire
re-fingering of "Freedom Jazz Dance" using PS' method of fingering it.
I'll try to post it here, if I can overcome my incredible incompetence
at doing such things...;')

van

2019-01-21 19:27:46 UTC

Every trade-off comes with advantages and liabilities. I roll my
fingers to get a specific line working, sometimes it's
easier--sometimes it's not.

The fingers and the whole hand position have much more strength when
they are in an arched position, compared to when thry are flattened
down".

I agree completely, nevertheless certain lines demand certain
approaches. I think the logic is essentially the right place to
start--and abandon when when practical applications don't readily apply.

I just did a search on PS in the archives of this NG, and learned he had a very serious case of arthritis, so I guess his fingering method has no effect on hand health.

Gerry

2019-01-21 19:43:25 UTC

Post by van
He advises to "Keep fingers on their tips" at all times", when playing single lines.
Does this make a difference to you when you hear a player NOT do this,
as opposed to following PS' fingering method.

Post by van
I was discussing this on another website and someone sent me an entire
re-fingering of "Freedom Jazz Dance" using PS' method of fingering it.
I'll try to post it here, if I can overcome my incredible incompetence
at doing such things...;')

I just did a search on PS in the archives of this NG, and learned he
had a very serious case of arthritis, so I guess his fingering method
has no effect on hand health.

Fingering method certainly can exacerbate arthritis, tendonitis and
other circumstances. Whether they are responsible in part for
*causing* them, I don't know. I recall Andrew Green in one of his
books (if I recall correctly) talked about having significant finger
issues until he stopped barring two frets (or rolling) between two
fingers. And so endorses an approach to fingering I found problematic
and difficult, and at my age had personallly seen no similar negative
results.

Every hand is different, just like embochure and vibrato!

van

2019-01-21 21:16:07 UTC

Post by van
He advises to "Keep fingers on their tips" at all times", when playing
single lines.
Does this make a difference to you when you hear a player NOT do this,
as opposed to following PS' fingering method.

I just did a search on PS in the archives of this NG, and learned he
had a very serious case of arthritis, so I guess his fingering method
has no effect on hand health.

Fingering method certainly can exacerbate arthritis, tendonitis and
other circumstances. Whether they are responsible in part for
*causing* them, I don't know. I recall Andrew Green in one of his
books (if I recall correctly) talked about having significant finger
issues until he stopped barring two frets (or rolling) between two
fingers. And so endorses an approach to fingering I found problematic
and difficult, and at my age had personallly seen no similar negative
results.
Every hand is different, just like embochure and vibrato!

It's funny you mention Andy Green; that's where the fingering for Freedom Jazz Dance came from. Here's the link to the PDF:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/p15wfq5bmfvvaeh/AndrewGreenFJD.pdf?dl=0

Gerry

2019-01-22 02:10:39 UTC

Post by van
He advises to "Keep fingers on their tips" at all times", when playing
single lines.
Does this make a difference to you when you hear a player NOT do this,
as opposed to following PS' fingering method.

I just did a search on PS in the archives of this NG, and learned he
had a very serious case of arthritis, so I guess his fingering method
has no effect on hand health.

Fingering method certainly can exacerbate arthritis, tendonitis and
other circumstances. Whether they are responsible in part for
*causing* them, I don't know. I recall Andrew Green in one of his
books (if I recall correctly) talked about having significant finger
issues until he stopped barring two frets (or rolling) between two
fingers. And so endorses an approach to fingering I found problematic
and difficult, and at my age had personallly seen no similar negative
results.
Every hand is different, just like embochure and vibrato!

It's funny you mention Andy Green; that's where the fingering for
https://www.dropbox.com/s/p15wfq5bmfvvaeh/AndrewGreenFJD.pdf?dl=0

Cool, I'll take a look at it. I'll dig through (what remains) of his
guitar instruction and see if I can find his specific complaint.

Gerry

2019-01-23 20:56:19 UTC

Post by van
He advises to "Keep fingers on their tips" at all times", when playing
single lines. Does this make a difference to you when you hear a player
NOT do this,
as opposed to following PS' fingering method.

I just did a search on PS in the archives of this NG, and learned he
had a very serious case of arthritis, so I guess his fingering method
has no effect on hand health.

Fingering method certainly can exacerbate arthritis, tendonitis and
other circumstances. Whether they are responsible in part for
*causing* them, I don't know. I recall Andrew Green in one of his
books (if I recall correctly) talked about having significant finger
issues until he stopped barring two frets (or rolling) between two
fingers. And so endorses an approach to fingering I found problematic
and difficult, and at my age had personallly seen no similar negative
results.
Every hand is different, just like embochure and vibrato!

It's funny you mention Andy Green; that's where the fingering for
https://www.dropbox.com/s/p15wfq5bmfvvaeh/AndrewGreenFJD.pdf?dl=0

I read through "Freedom Jazz Dance" this morning, and it demonstrates
what I recall of Green's approach, that he he has a fourth (say G (4
string) and C(3)) and he pefers to fret them with the 2nd finger and
the 1st finger respectively. I think most guitarists would play them
both with either their 1st or 2nd finger across both frets, either
rolling the finger, or initially setting the finger down across both
strings in a mini-barre, if you will.

I saw a longer discussion of the issue somewhere in Green's trilogy of
folios, though I only retain Technique and Structures. The third might
be in the garage or goodwill, I've forgotten.

In "Technique: Breaking the Skill Barrier" he says "My suggested
fingerings are not mandatory. One thing I will emphasize: Don't barre
when playing consecutive notes at the same fret--this makes it harder
to play with good time and, more importantly, can contribute to
tendinitis [sic]."

As I recall, his longer discussion stated that he had incurred some
tendonitis as a result of such ergonomic conditions after a long
gig/tour. In recovery, he applied this approach to deal with his
issues. Good for him. I've had tendonitis myself and addressed it
both times with rest and copious amounts of fish oil (and attendant
pineapple enzymes to make so much fish oil more easily digested!). If
I have one great kudo for usenet guitar discussion, it's that I found
my supplements "cure" in someone's post, followed it faithfully and was
reborn.

Nevertheless, as I try Green's fingering on "Freedom Jazz Dance", I
find that I need to turn my wrist a skosh inward in order to get my
second to sit parallel to my first finger but on a lower string.
Considering my own history, I think torqueing my wrist could cause more
issues than barring two frets.

But to the larger point of playing with barres, grand/full bar or
half-barre, as somebody who plays primarily solo guitar, avoiding
barres isn't an option. I have some tunes that depend on larger barres
throught the piece. It's true I don't play two barre-heavy pieces one
after the other, I'm not insane! And in learning/rehearsing them I
take more frequent rests, or try to when working on such pieces.

I have had the occasional finger-muscle strain from over-use or
repetition (in rehearsal/practice) but these aren't usually my first or
second fingers, but more frequently my 4th or 3rd. And it usually
dissipates overnight or within a day or two. By which I mean it doesn't
seem to be barre or finger-roll related.

To your earlier point regarding Sprague and arthritis: Has this idea
now been corrected to indicate Andrew Green and tendonitis *instead* of
Sprague, or in addition?

van

2019-01-23 23:47:10 UTC

Post by van
He advises to "Keep fingers on their tips" at all times", when playing
single lines. Does this make a difference to you when you hear a player
NOT do this,
as opposed to following PS' fingering method.

I just did a search on PS in the archives of this NG, and learned he
had a very serious case of arthritis, so I guess his fingering method
has no effect on hand health.

Fingering method certainly can exacerbate arthritis, tendonitis and
other circumstances. Whether they are responsible in part for
*causing* them, I don't know. I recall Andrew Green in one of his
books (if I recall correctly) talked about having significant finger
issues until he stopped barring two frets (or rolling) between two
fingers. And so endorses an approach to fingering I found problematic
and difficult, and at my age had personallly seen no similar negative
results.
Every hand is different, just like embochure and vibrato!

It's funny you mention Andy Green; that's where the fingering for
https://www.dropbox.com/s/p15wfq5bmfvvaeh/AndrewGreenFJD.pdf?dl=0

I read through "Freedom Jazz Dance" this morning, and it demonstrates
what I recall of Green's approach, that he he has a fourth (say G (4
string) and C(3)) and he pefers to fret them with the 2nd finger and
the 1st finger respectively. I think most guitarists would play them
both with either their 1st or 2nd finger across both frets, either
rolling the finger, or initially setting the finger down across both
strings in a mini-barre, if you will.
I saw a longer discussion of the issue somewhere in Green's trilogy of
folios, though I only retain Technique and Structures. The third might
be in the garage or goodwill, I've forgotten.
In "Technique: Breaking the Skill Barrier" he says "My suggested
fingerings are not mandatory. One thing I will emphasize: Don't barre
when playing consecutive notes at the same fret--this makes it harder
to play with good time and, more importantly, can contribute to
tendinitis [sic]."
As I recall, his longer discussion stated that he had incurred some
tendonitis as a result of such ergonomic conditions after a long
gig/tour. In recovery, he applied this approach to deal with his
issues. Good for him. I've had tendonitis myself and addressed it
both times with rest and copious amounts of fish oil (and attendant
pineapple enzymes to make so much fish oil more easily digested!). If
I have one great kudo for usenet guitar discussion, it's that I found
my supplements "cure" in someone's post, followed it faithfully and was
reborn.
Nevertheless, as I try Green's fingering on "Freedom Jazz Dance", I
find that I need to turn my wrist a skosh inward in order to get my
second to sit parallel to my first finger but on a lower string.
Considering my own history, I think torqueing my wrist could cause more
issues than barring two frets.
But to the larger point of playing with barres, grand/full bar or
half-barre, as somebody who plays primarily solo guitar, avoiding
barres isn't an option. I have some tunes that depend on larger barres
throught the piece. It's true I don't play two barre-heavy pieces one
after the other, I'm not insane! And in learning/rehearsing them I
take more frequent rests, or try to when working on such pieces.
I have had the occasional finger-muscle strain from over-use or
repetition (in rehearsal/practice) but these aren't usually my first or
second fingers, but more frequently my 4th or 3rd. And it usually
dissipates overnight or within a day or two. By which I mean it doesn't
seem to be barre or finger-roll related.
To your earlier point regarding Sprague and arthritis: Has this idea
now been corrected to indicate Andrew Green and tendonitis *instead* of
Sprague, or in addition?

i didn't say Green had arthritis. I was working with his trumpet player at the time, John McNeil, and he said AG couldn't play for a few months, cause he had hand problems. Sprague was the only guy I mentioned that had arthritis.
I was always interested in what he learned when he studied with Serge Chaloff's mother in Boston. He said that he learned some difficult hand exercises that he couldn't do anymore.

Gerry

2019-01-24 01:39:54 UTC

Post by van
i didn't say Green had arthritis. I was working with his trumpet player
at the time, John McNeil, and he said AG couldn't play for a few
months, cause he had hand problems. Sprague was the only guy I
mentioned that had arthritis.

Clarified. Thanks.

Post by van
I was always interested in what he learned when he studied with Serge
Chaloff's mother in Boston. He said that he learned some difficult hand
exercises that he couldn't do anymore.

I take this to mean Sprague studied with Chaloff's mom. Pronouns
aren't always helpful!

You sure have played with some interesting people, bro!

Tony DeCaprio

2019-01-22 17:12:44 UTC

Yeah, Peter's a great player, and a very cool guy. I 'spoke'with him online, and he was very helpful.I've bought all his records, and they're pretty unusual. They seem more spiritually oriented than straight-ahead jazz, kind of in the Coltrane bag, but on the records I've got where he's a sideman, he can play straight-ahead stuff with the best of them.he plays a lot of acoustic guitar on them.
I just bought one he did with Bill Mays, Bob Magnusson and Jim Plank in a band they called Road Work Ahead named "Night and Day' that I'm looking forward to listening to.
He doesn't play notes on two adjacent strings that are on the same fret using the same finger on his LH, because it sounds too muddy. He uses a different finger for each of the notes.
So when he plays fourths on two different strings, he'll never use the same finger to play them. The same thing with major thirds on the G and B strings.
He does a lot of production work for different artists in Spragueland, his own studio.
His main influences are Trane and Chick Corea.

I prefer utilizing both ways. Choosing one way ("as way") can limit certain forms of outcome. The matrix of fingerings-to-aural-yield outcome can be vast. Certain wanted phrasing lends itself to barre and certain forms to "tips." Personally, I favor non barring, but not religiously so.

van

2019-01-22 21:37:01 UTC

Yeah, Peter's a great player, and a very cool guy. I 'spoke'with him online, and he was very helpful.I've bought all his records, and they're pretty unusual. They seem more spiritually oriented than straight-ahead jazz, kind of in the Coltrane bag, but on the records I've got where he's a sideman, he can play straight-ahead stuff with the best of them.he plays a lot of acoustic guitar on them.
I just bought one he did with Bill Mays, Bob Magnusson and Jim Plank in a band they called Road Work Ahead named "Night and Day' that I'm looking forward to listening to.
He doesn't play notes on two adjacent strings that are on the same fret using the same finger on his LH, because it sounds too muddy. He uses a different finger for each of the notes.
So when he plays fourths on two different strings, he'll never use the same finger to play them. The same thing with major thirds on the G and B strings.
He does a lot of production work for different artists in Spragueland, his own studio.
His main influences are Trane and Chick Corea.

Yeah, there are some times when this is really helpful- Playing the head to FJD without having to worry about notes being held too long, and PS seems to be right in some situations about letting your hand get locked into one position, especially at fast tempos.

Tony DeCaprio

2019-01-24 14:58:18 UTC

Yeah, Peter's a great player, and a very cool guy. I 'spoke'with him online, and he was very helpful.I've bought all his records, and they're pretty unusual. They seem more spiritually oriented than straight-ahead jazz, kind of in the Coltrane bag, but on the records I've got where he's a sideman, he can play straight-ahead stuff with the best of them.he plays a lot of acoustic guitar on them.
I just bought one he did with Bill Mays, Bob Magnusson and Jim Plank in a band they called Road Work Ahead named "Night and Day' that I'm looking forward to listening to.
He doesn't play notes on two adjacent strings that are on the same fret using the same finger on his LH, because it sounds too muddy. He uses a different finger for each of the notes.
So when he plays fourths on two different strings, he'll never use the same finger to play them. The same thing with major thirds on the G and B strings.
He does a lot of production work for different artists in Spragueland, his own studio.
His main influences are Trane and Chick Corea.

Another 'key' factor is in the quantum of ambidextricity. Some players have an advantage, some fall victim to the possible perils of genetics. A great deal of control and agility is achieved from a young age, as we are all well aware. While books and methods and various pedagogical forms will help facilitate most anything, there remains no one size fitting all. Then there are some people capable of overcoming all odds. Those are the (my) heroes...

joel fass

2020-10-17 03:41:28 UTC

Yeah, Peter's a great player, and a very cool guy. I 'spoke'with him online, and he was very helpful.I've bought all his records, and they're pretty unusual. They seem more spiritually oriented than straight-ahead jazz, kind of in the Coltrane bag, but on the records I've got where he's a sideman, he can play straight-ahead stuff with the best of them.he plays a lot of acoustic guitar on them.
I just bought one he did with Bill Mays, Bob Magnusson and Jim Plank in a band they called Road Work Ahead named "Night and Day' that I'm looking forward to listening to.
He doesn't play notes on two adjacent strings that are on the same fret using the same finger on his LH, because it sounds too muddy. He uses a different finger for each of the notes.
So when he plays fourths on two different strings, he'll never use the same finger to play them. The same thing with major thirds on the G and B strings.
He does a lot of production work for different artists in Spragueland, his own studio.
His main influences are Trane and Chick Corea.

Yes to all. I first heard him in Bob Mover's group in like '77, at the old Sweet Basil and on Bob's record. He had a lot together---at the tender age of 21. You don't get up there with Tom Harrell---who was just SMOKIN' then (in Bob's same group was where I first heard him too, after Bob signified to me about him)---and half or even three quarter step. I heard some pretty recent things too. What is it about California? Him; Anthony Wilson; Larry Koonse; (elder statesman) Ron Eschete? Like, jeez. I'm not all that into the guitar or being ghettoized by any instrument in the sense that it can be a trap--you dig? But these MFs---they're MUSICIANS---of a damn high caliber. Peter Sprague: you GO, guy...

Dom Minasi

2019-01-17 23:47:16 UTC