Discussion:
non-jazz music suggestions
(too old to reply)
Paul
2008-12-29 09:44:55 UTC
Permalink
hey all,

i'm trying to expand my horizons a little more. i've been listening to
jazz almost exclusively for a while, but hearing stuff like mehldau's
elegiac cycle, rosenwinkel's heartcore, aaron parks' invisible cinema,
etc. i see all this stuff about how they're influenced by all kinds of
music, and i want my music to be influenced by all music as well;

so i'm looking for suggestions from you guys of some stuff i should
check out for different genres, like classical, electronic/
alternative, hip hop. as far as the alternative and hip hop stuff
goes, i'm hoping to find something a little more musical/artistic than
a lot of the stuff i've heard...and for classical i don't even know
where to begin. i like debussy's doctor gradus and clair de lune. i've
read mehldauh mentioning brahms and rosenwinkel mentioning shoenberg
somewhere, but i don't know anything about them.

thanks a lot
e***@yahoo.com
2008-12-29 11:23:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul
hey all,
i'm trying to expand my horizons a little more. i've been listening to
jazz almost exclusively for a while, but hearing stuff like mehldau's
elegiac cycle, rosenwinkel's heartcore, aaron parks' invisible cinema,
etc. i see all this stuff about how they're influenced by all kinds of
music, and i want my music to be influenced by all music as well;
so i'm looking for suggestions from you guys of some stuff i should
check out for different genres, like classical, electronic/
alternative, hip hop. as far as the alternative and hip hop stuff
goes, i'm hoping to find something a little more musical/artistic than
a lot of the stuff i've heard...and for classical i don't even know
where to begin. i like debussy's doctor gradus and clair de lune. i've
read mehldauh mentioning brahms and rosenwinkel mentioning shoenberg
somewhere, but i don't know anything about them.
thanks a lot
Leo Brouwer: Guitar Music, Vol. 1, Naxos - 20 Estudios sencillos
For Classical Music, start with string quartets, piano sonatas,
chamber music which consists of smaller instrumental configurations,
and of course, Bach's Well Tempered Clavier.
andy-uk
2008-12-29 17:07:19 UTC
Permalink
for classical

stravinski ...firebird , petrushka , rite of spring.. also ebony
concerto

rachmaninoff 2nd piano Sonata (solo piano) [howard shelly]

I think arnold schoenburg did a few accessible pieces "the
nightingale" ...the rest is really out there

bach ...St Matthews passion...

these I recommend

do yourself a favour and get them out of the library rather than you
tubing.
c***@claymoore.com
2008-12-29 17:34:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul
hey all,
i'm trying to expand my horizons a little more. i've been listening to
jazz almost exclusively for a while, but hearing stuff like mehldau's
elegiac cycle, rosenwinkel's heartcore, aaron parks' invisible cinema,
etc. i see all this stuff about how they're influenced by all kinds of
music, and i want my music to be influenced by all music as well;
so i'm looking for suggestions from you guys of some stuff i should
check out for different genres, like classical, electronic/
alternative, hip hop. as far as the alternative and hip hop stuff
goes, i'm hoping to find something a little more musical/artistic than
a lot of the stuff i've heard...and for classical i don't even know
where to begin. i like debussy's doctor gradus and clair de lune. i've
read mehldauh mentioning brahms and rosenwinkel mentioning shoenberg
somewhere, but i don't know anything about them.
thanks a lot
Hi Paul,

I've been checking out classical music on emusic because every month I
have to figure out how to "spend" my downloads, and I came across two
really great (IMHO) recordings.

Takemitsu: String Around Autumn - very modern orchestral music that is
somewhat lighter texturally by comparison to say, Bartok (whom I
dearly love, BTW)

Toccata In Blue by Dale Kavanagh - brilliant modern music for
classical guitar, played beautifully by Ms. Kavanagh

Clay Moore
KenK
2008-12-29 18:14:43 UTC
Permalink
I've gotten pretty deep into flamenco, and through that, Middle-
Eastern music. Even begun using flamenco techniques in my jazz
playing.

Paco de Lucia
Tomatito
Paco Pena
Vicente Amigo
Gerardo Nunez

Check them out on youtube.
If you're interested, I'll tell you my fav cd's.

KenK
josh
2008-12-29 18:26:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul
hey all,
i'm trying to expand my horizons a little more. i've been listening to
jazz almost exclusively for a while, but hearing stuff like mehldau's
elegiac cycle, rosenwinkel's heartcore, aaron parks' invisible cinema,
etc. i see all this stuff about how they're influenced by all kinds of
music, and i want my music to be influenced by all music as well;
so i'm looking for suggestions from you guys of some stuff i should
check out for different genres, like classical, electronic/
alternative, hip hop. as far as the alternative and hip hop stuff
goes, i'm hoping to find something a little more musical/artistic than
a lot of the stuff i've heard...and for classical i don't even know
where to begin. i like debussy's doctor gradus and clair de lune. i've
read mehldauh mentioning brahms and rosenwinkel mentioning shoenberg
somewhere, but i don't know anything about them.
thanks a lot
For electronic, the two big guys (as far as I'm concerned) are
Squarepusher and Aphex Twin. Squarepusher's Hard Normal Daddy is a
good start as it stays in and around 70's fusion constructs, but if
you're feeling adventurous then i would reccomend Squarepushers Go
PLastic or Aphex Twin "Richard D. James" album
For Hip Hop, check out MF Doom. He uses a lot of seventies funk
grooves that are heavily orchestrated then the average westcoast
parliament sample. If you are at all into Cartoon Network's Adult
Swim, There is an album that samples that stuff a lot called
DangerDoom. If not check out the album Madvillain

As far as rock type stuff goes, all the kids love meshuggah, which is
a heavy metal band that uses lots of interesting rhyhms. I would also
check out a band called fantomas, which is another heavy band, but one
that is influenced by John Zorn and his ideas of new rock complexity

And for Schoenberg, I feel his two song cycles Pierrot Lunaire and the
Hanging Gardens good places to get into his early (free atonal style)
that is based more off of musical gestures than chord progressions.
That and each movement is short and easy on the attention span. I
would also check out Olivier Messiaen's quartet for the end of time as
well as his vingt regards.

I hope you like these suggestions. As much as I love jazz, I always
try to listen to as much other stuff as possible, just so the music
that make doesn't sound exactly like (insert jazz guitarist here).
josh
van
2008-12-29 18:55:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by josh
Post by Paul
hey all,
i'm trying to expand my horizons a little more. i've been listening to
jazz almost exclusively for a while, but hearing stuff like mehldau's
elegiac cycle, rosenwinkel's heartcore, aaron parks' invisible cinema,
etc. i see all this stuff about how they're influenced by all kinds of
music, and i want my music to be influenced by all music as well;
so i'm looking for suggestions from you guys of some stuff i should
check out for different genres, like classical, electronic/
alternative, hip hop. as far as the alternative and hip hop stuff
goes, i'm hoping to find something a little more musical/artistic than
a lot of the stuff i've heard...and for classical i don't even know
where to begin. i like debussy's doctor gradus and clair de lune. i've
read mehldauh mentioning brahms and rosenwinkel mentioning shoenberg
somewhere, but i don't know anything about them.
thanks a lot
For electronic, the two big guys (as far as I'm concerned) are
Squarepusher and Aphex Twin.  Squarepusher's Hard Normal Daddy is a
good start as it stays in and around 70's fusion constructs, but if
you're feeling adventurous then i would reccomend Squarepushers Go
PLastic or Aphex Twin "Richard D. James" album
For Hip Hop, check out MF Doom. He uses a lot of seventies funk
grooves that are heavily orchestrated then the average westcoast
parliament sample.  If you are at all into Cartoon Network's Adult
Swim, There is an album that samples that stuff a lot called
DangerDoom.  If not check out the album Madvillain
As far as rock type stuff goes, all the kids love meshuggah, which is
a heavy metal band that uses lots of interesting rhyhms.  I would also
check out a band called fantomas, which is another heavy band, but one
that is influenced by John Zorn and his ideas of new rock complexity
And for Schoenberg, I feel his two song cycles Pierrot Lunaire and the
Hanging Gardens good places to get into his early (free atonal style)
that is based more off of musical gestures than chord progressions.
That and each movement is short and easy on the attention span.  I
would also check out Olivier Messiaen's quartet for the end of time as
well as his vingt regards.
I hope you like these suggestions.  As much as I love jazz, I always
try to listen to as much other stuff as possible, just so the music
that make doesn't sound exactly like (insert jazz guitarist here).
josh- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
I've been into a mystical, esoteric, spiritual trip lately- I'm
considering starting up a cult with as many nubile, young women as I
can find as followers- to help me get thru this economic thing, of
course, but here's the music we intend to use for our ritual sacrifice
ceremonies:

t***@timberens.com
2008-12-29 22:21:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul
hey all,
i'm trying to expand my horizons a little more.
Paul:

Go hear live music -- whatever kind of live music you can find around
you. If you live in a big city, go to the symphony. Find out when
their next concert is and just go. You will probably love it.

Find out about local music series. Most cities have series that
feature all sorts of music. Get on your local arts organizations
mailing lists to learn what's going on. And go listen. Go hear a
chorus sing the works of Bach. Go hear a bluegrass band do a tribute
to the Beverly Hillbillies. Go hear a string quartet play Bartok.

And then after the show, talk to the musicians. Unless they are big
name touring players, they will most likely be delighted to talk to
any audience member who shows an interest in their music. Ask
questions -- even ask music geek questions -- the performers usually
are happy to talk, and you can learn a lot as you open your ears.

If possible, go hear live flamenco -- not just flamenco guitarists,
but a real flamenco performance with singers, dancers, clappers and
guitarists. It is one of the more engaging art forms I have ever
seen.

Happy listening.
Tim
http://timberens.com
Dan Adler
2008-12-29 22:44:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul
hey all,
i'm trying to expand my horizons a little more. i've been listening to
jazz almost exclusively for a while, but hearing stuff like mehldau's
elegiac cycle, rosenwinkel's heartcore, aaron parks' invisible cinema,
etc. i see all this stuff about how they're influenced by all kinds of
music, and i want my music to be influenced by all music as well;
so i'm looking for suggestions from you guys of some stuff i should
check out for different genres, like classical, electronic/
alternative, hip hop. as far as the alternative and hip hop stuff
goes, i'm hoping to find something a little more musical/artistic than
a lot of the stuff i've heard...and for classical i don't even know
where to begin. i like debussy's doctor gradus and clair de lune. i've
read mehldauh mentioning brahms and rosenwinkel mentioning shoenberg
somewhere, but i don't know anything about them.
thanks a lot
If you are going to "find your taste" in classical, you might start
with an overview that includes music + info like this:

http://www.amazon.com/Classical-Music-Experience-Discover-Composers/dp/1570719500/ref=cm_lmf_img_1

I'm sure there are lots of others, probably free ones as well, but it
will be useful to taste a bit of everything and the settle on what you
want to explore in more detail.

-Dan
http://danadler.com
Mark & Steven Bornfeld
2008-12-30 00:04:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul
hey all,
i'm trying to expand my horizons a little more. i've been listening to
jazz almost exclusively for a while, but hearing stuff like mehldau's
elegiac cycle, rosenwinkel's heartcore, aaron parks' invisible cinema,
etc. i see all this stuff about how they're influenced by all kinds of
music, and i want my music to be influenced by all music as well;
so i'm looking for suggestions from you guys of some stuff i should
check out for different genres, like classical, electronic/
alternative, hip hop. as far as the alternative and hip hop stuff
goes, i'm hoping to find something a little more musical/artistic than
a lot of the stuff i've heard...and for classical i don't even know
where to begin. i like debussy's doctor gradus and clair de lune. i've
read mehldauh mentioning brahms and rosenwinkel mentioning shoenberg
somewhere, but i don't know anything about them.
thanks a lot
If you want a good primer on the range of classical music from medieval
to mid 20th century and you don't have much of a technical musical
background, I recommend What To Listen To In Music, by Aaron Copland, as
a primer.
In the past couple of years I've listened to a lot of early music. The
polyphonic style has some parallels to early jazz (though of course
harmony was rudimentary), and some I find almost supernaturally beautiful.
You may be able to pick up on ebay fairly inexpensively two sets
(6-CDs each) of Norton's Recorded Anthology of Western Music for a good
survey of the progression of musical elements through the ages.
At the other extreme, I'm going to try to listen to some of Dan Stearns
and his microtonal mindblowing music. ;-)

Steve
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
g***@googlemail.com
2009-01-02 15:48:11 UTC
Permalink
On 30 Dec 2008, 00:04, Mark & Steven Bornfeld
        At the other extreme, I'm going to try to listen to some of Dan Stearns
and his microtonal mindblowing music.  ;-)
I'm still finding my way around the 12-note scale.

To have to abandon that and think in a whole
new musical universe would be..... unthinkable.

--
http://www.gillsmith999.plus.com/
danstearns
2009-01-10 01:33:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@googlemail.com
On 30 Dec 2008, 00:04, Mark & Steven Bornfeld
        At the other extreme, I'm going to try to listen to some of Dan Stearns
and his microtonal mindblowing music.  ;-)
I'm still finding my way around the 12-note scale.
To have to abandon that and think in a whole
new musical universe would be..... unthinkable.
--http://www.gillsmith999.plus.com/
In his 2008 article, "Why teaching microtonality from familiar ->
exotic is a bad idea", Brian McLaren makes the case, one I agree with
FWiW, that if if swimming is your goal , you should forgo timidity as
a matter of course and jump in the deep waters…by analogy, something
akin to what McKenna would refer to as a meaningful, committed, or
heroic dose.

Why Teaching Microtonality from Familiar -> Exotic is a Bad Idea
Brian McLaren
March 3, 2008

The entire idea of trying to introduce microtonality to people by
starting with what's familiar and gradually moving by baby steps to
more exotic tunings is a disastrously bad idea. A lot of people have
done this, and it has _always_ worked out badly.
Let me explain why.
[1] People who are interested in learning about microtonality are
generally not shrinking violets. Any folks who sign up for a class on
microtones are usually among the more adventurous musicians in a
group. Easing these folks into microtonality by starting with trite
junk like quartertones will at first frustrate, and soon annoy and
eventually enrage them. These folks want to hear the real deal, music
that sounds radical and striking. They don't want to hear a bunch of 5-
limit diatonic 12-note JI and listen to someone try to tell 'em that's
microtonal -- they know damn well it isn't. That's pissing on peoples'
legs and telling 'em it's raining. They get fed up with that kind of
condescending treatment _fast_.
[2] If you're dealing with a casual listener who just asks "So what's
all that xenharmonic stuff about?" you want to show casual listeners
_right off_ just how awesome and powerful microtonality can be, and
that means you hit 'em with the wild exotic stuff. Many people
mistakenly imagine that the average listener is conservative or
fearful of novelty. In my experience, not so. The average listener is
much more open-minded and much more eager to immerse hi/rself in
radical new sounds than most folks think. What the average listener
does NOT want is jargon and numerology. You start spouting a bunch of
fancy Greek words (diatoniaion and epimore and epimere and comma) and
drawing lotsa geometric diagrams and numbers on a blackboard, and the
average listener's eyes glaze over. They get sick of that crap
_fast_.
So for an average listener, just hit 'em with radical novel microtonal
music. Don't bother to go into details. You don't even have to tell
'em it's non-octave. If they want to know, you can go into details,
but the music's what matters. Shoot, don't even tell 'em it's
microtonal. Just play it for 'em. They'll love it.
[3] The biggest problems with starting with familiar tunings is that
these are by far the least interesting-sounding of all microtonal
tunings. In fact, most of 'em are boring as crap. So there you are,
droning on through this familiar bland stuff, 5-limit diatonic 12-note
JI, 19 equal in the diatonic mode that sounds just about exactly like
12 equal, and everybody is nodding off. People are starting to leave
the freakin' room. They're rolling their eyes. They're whispering to
one another, "THIS is MICROTONAL? Ye gods, this is BORING!"
BAD way to introduce microtonality. Bad, B*A*D*, _BAAAAD_ idea. Half
your group is likely to sidle out of the room before you work your
way, slowly and gradually, by baby steps, up to the point where the
xenharmonic tunings sounds distinctly Unlike conventional music, and
start to sound spicy and vivid and startlingly new.
[4] Starting with familiar-sounding novels unconsciously creates an
"anchor point." And it's a piss-poor anchor point. See Khaneman and
Tversky's Nobel-prize-winning work on the irrationalities of human
judgment -- "anchoring," which they first categorized and quantified,
is one of the most notable examples.
Anchoring occurs when you skew peoples' beliefs by the way you present
information. For example: let's assume you don't know the population
of Turkey (you probably don't) and I ask you "What's the population of
Turkey? 80 million? 120 million? 140 million?" You'll give me an
answer and it's probably going to be around the middle of the choices
I gave you. But if I ask a different group of people "What's the
population of Turkey? 10 million? 20 million? 30 million?" I'll get a
different set of answers, grouped around the middle of the second set
of choices.
The way the information is presented created an "anchor point" which
distorts people's expectations. In the first example, people's answers
will tend to cluster around 120 million, while in the second example
peoples' answers will tend to cluster around 20 million.
The population of Turkey is 71 million, by the way. Notice how we can
distort people's judgment about the size of the Turkish population
just by using this anchoring technique. Political polls do this all
the time, as do product evaluation polls set up by companies that want
to sell a product. It's all a form of psychological manipulation.
Creeps do this today with the post-9/11 hysteria: "Which do you
prefer? Freedom? Or security?" Anyone who's not brain-damaged will
obviously answer security. Freedom doesn't do you much good if you're
dead. But suppose you change the question -- "Which do you prefer?
Having every aspect of your life controlled by the security state? Or
being free?" Guess which answer people give _then_...?
Such is the power of anchoring.
The problem with starting with a familiar set of 12-like tunings and
gradually moving toward unfamiliar tunings that don't sound like 12 is
that you've created an anchor point -- and your anchor is 12. This is
a bad mistake. By the time you're halfway through giving your
introduction to microtonality, your audience will get the idea -- THE
WRONG IDEA: any tuning is good insofar as it is like 12. If doesn't
sound like 12, it's not so good.
This results in the kind of dismal crap you see on sinkholes of
deluded folly like the Alternative Lying List, where all tunings get
judged in a foolish continuum that runs from "very similar to 12 =
good" and "very different from 12 = bad." This naturally leads to
crazy and insanely stupid conclusions, like "all non-octave tunings =
bad."
The musical reality turns out to be just the opposite. The real value
of microtonal tunings involves getting away from what's familiar.
History shows that the most popular microtonal tunings are those which
audibly differ most drastically from 12 equal. 15 equal is extremely
popular, used by Wendy Carlos, Augusto Novaro, Ivor Darreg, Bill
Wesley, Easley Balckwood, myself, and many many others. 15 equal is
popular because it sounds radically and wildly different from 12
equal. You don't get anything like a conventional diatonic scale. You
get major and minor triads, but they sound noticeably different from
the major and minor triads in 12. You don't have a conventional
leading tone. Everything is different. This makes music in 15 equal
sound fresh and lively and vivacious. 15 equal breaks open a smelling
salts capsule under the audience's nose and really wakes 'em up.
By contrast, 19 equal can sound almost identical to 12, and this tends
to bore the audience. "If we wanted to hear 12," their attitude tends
to be, "we would've stayed with 12. Why bother with this?"
Once again, 9 equal sounds radically different from conventional
western music. You hit an audience with 9 equal, and they'll get
excited. But if you have the bad judgment to start the audience out
with the Greek chromatic and diatonic genera, the audience is likely
to snooze off. That stuff sounds almost identical to conventional
western music. The audience fidgets. They shift in their seats. They
start to get antsy. "When are we going to hear the real stuff/" they
start to ask. They get impatient.
Back in the 60s and 70s it used to be chic to play a familiar song
like "Greensleves" in 31 equal and call that "microtonality." Bad bad
bad idea. Ivor Darreg had a better idea -- he used to play visitors 13
equal melodies on a bunch of bronze slats he had set up as tubulongs.
The exotic inharmonic percussive timbre combined with the novel sound
of 13 always perked people up. They got interested. It piqued their
curiosity. They wanted to know more.
Playing "Greensleeves" in 31 equal never worked. 31 equal used to be
touted back in the 60s as some kind of "universal tuning" which,
academics claimed, would be ideal because you could play conventional
western music in it and it would sound almost identical to what we're
familiar with, as well as playing new music.
Well, that didn't fly. No one interested in new music gives a damn
about hearing the same old thing played in the same old way. They want
something NEW. The "old wine in new bottles" is an absolute plague in
cesspools of musical ignorance like the Alternative Lying List, and
you constantly find people wasting their goddamn time playing Fur
Elise in 5-limit diatonic JI. That's crap. It's death. It sounds
lethally boring. No one cares. Jettison that junk. Deep six it. Press
the eject button on that garbage. The way to get people excited about
microtonality is show 'em vividly and audibly, first-hand, just how
different and exciting microtonal tunings can be... And that means
playing radical new tunings. 9 equal, the Greek enharmonic, pelog
slendro, not this "start with what's familiar" crap. Starting with
what's familiar is the kiss of death.
Mark & Steven Bornfeld
2009-01-21 19:18:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by danstearns
Post by g***@googlemail.com
On 30 Dec 2008, 00:04, Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
At the other extreme, I'm going to try to listen to some of Dan Stearns
and his microtonal mindblowing music. ;-)
I'm still finding my way around the 12-note scale.
To have to abandon that and think in a whole
new musical universe would be..... unthinkable.
--http://www.gillsmith999.plus.com/
In his 2008 article, "Why teaching microtonality from familiar ->
exotic is a bad idea", Brian McLaren makes the case, one I agree with
FWiW, that if if swimming is your goal , you should forgo timidity as
a matter of course and jump in the deep waters…by analogy, something
akin to what McKenna would refer to as a meaningful, committed, or
heroic dose.
Why Teaching Microtonality from Familiar -> Exotic is a Bad Idea
Brian McLaren
March 3, 2008
The entire idea of trying to introduce microtonality to people by
starting with what's familiar and gradually moving by baby steps to
more exotic tunings is a disastrously bad idea. A lot of people have
done this, and it has _always_ worked out badly.
Let me explain why.
[1] People who are interested in learning about microtonality are
generally not shrinking violets. Any folks who sign up for a class on
microtones are usually among the more adventurous musicians in a
group. Easing these folks into microtonality by starting with trite
junk like quartertones will at first frustrate, and soon annoy and
eventually enrage them. These folks want to hear the real deal, music
that sounds radical and striking. They don't want to hear a bunch of 5-
limit diatonic 12-note JI and listen to someone try to tell 'em that's
microtonal -- they know damn well it isn't. That's pissing on peoples'
legs and telling 'em it's raining. They get fed up with that kind of
condescending treatment _fast_.
[2] If you're dealing with a casual listener who just asks "So what's
all that xenharmonic stuff about?" you want to show casual listeners
_right off_ just how awesome and powerful microtonality can be, and
that means you hit 'em with the wild exotic stuff. Many people
mistakenly imagine that the average listener is conservative or
fearful of novelty. In my experience, not so. The average listener is
much more open-minded and much more eager to immerse hi/rself in
radical new sounds than most folks think. What the average listener
does NOT want is jargon and numerology. You start spouting a bunch of
fancy Greek words (diatoniaion and epimore and epimere and comma) and
drawing lotsa geometric diagrams and numbers on a blackboard, and the
average listener's eyes glaze over. They get sick of that crap
_fast_.
So for an average listener, just hit 'em with radical novel microtonal
music. Don't bother to go into details. You don't even have to tell
'em it's non-octave. If they want to know, you can go into details,
but the music's what matters. Shoot, don't even tell 'em it's
microtonal. Just play it for 'em. They'll love it.
[3] The biggest problems with starting with familiar tunings is that
these are by far the least interesting-sounding of all microtonal
tunings. In fact, most of 'em are boring as crap. So there you are,
droning on through this familiar bland stuff, 5-limit diatonic 12-note
JI, 19 equal in the diatonic mode that sounds just about exactly like
12 equal, and everybody is nodding off. People are starting to leave
the freakin' room. They're rolling their eyes. They're whispering to
one another, "THIS is MICROTONAL? Ye gods, this is BORING!"
BAD way to introduce microtonality. Bad, B*A*D*, _BAAAAD_ idea. Half
your group is likely to sidle out of the room before you work your
way, slowly and gradually, by baby steps, up to the point where the
xenharmonic tunings sounds distinctly Unlike conventional music, and
start to sound spicy and vivid and startlingly new.
[4] Starting with familiar-sounding novels unconsciously creates an
"anchor point." And it's a piss-poor anchor point. See Khaneman and
Tversky's Nobel-prize-winning work on the irrationalities of human
judgment -- "anchoring," which they first categorized and quantified,
is one of the most notable examples.
Anchoring occurs when you skew peoples' beliefs by the way you present
information. For example: let's assume you don't know the population
of Turkey (you probably don't) and I ask you "What's the population of
Turkey? 80 million? 120 million? 140 million?" You'll give me an
answer and it's probably going to be around the middle of the choices
I gave you. But if I ask a different group of people "What's the
population of Turkey? 10 million? 20 million? 30 million?" I'll get a
different set of answers, grouped around the middle of the second set
of choices.
The way the information is presented created an "anchor point" which
distorts people's expectations. In the first example, people's answers
will tend to cluster around 120 million, while in the second example
peoples' answers will tend to cluster around 20 million.
The population of Turkey is 71 million, by the way. Notice how we can
distort people's judgment about the size of the Turkish population
just by using this anchoring technique. Political polls do this all
the time, as do product evaluation polls set up by companies that want
to sell a product. It's all a form of psychological manipulation.
Creeps do this today with the post-9/11 hysteria: "Which do you
prefer? Freedom? Or security?" Anyone who's not brain-damaged will
obviously answer security. Freedom doesn't do you much good if you're
dead. But suppose you change the question -- "Which do you prefer?
Having every aspect of your life controlled by the security state? Or
being free?" Guess which answer people give _then_...?
Such is the power of anchoring.
The problem with starting with a familiar set of 12-like tunings and
gradually moving toward unfamiliar tunings that don't sound like 12 is
that you've created an anchor point -- and your anchor is 12. This is
a bad mistake. By the time you're halfway through giving your
introduction to microtonality, your audience will get the idea -- THE
WRONG IDEA: any tuning is good insofar as it is like 12. If doesn't
sound like 12, it's not so good.
This results in the kind of dismal crap you see on sinkholes of
deluded folly like the Alternative Lying List, where all tunings get
judged in a foolish continuum that runs from "very similar to 12 =
good" and "very different from 12 = bad." This naturally leads to
crazy and insanely stupid conclusions, like "all non-octave tunings =
bad."
The musical reality turns out to be just the opposite. The real value
of microtonal tunings involves getting away from what's familiar.
History shows that the most popular microtonal tunings are those which
audibly differ most drastically from 12 equal. 15 equal is extremely
popular, used by Wendy Carlos, Augusto Novaro, Ivor Darreg, Bill
Wesley, Easley Balckwood, myself, and many many others. 15 equal is
popular because it sounds radically and wildly different from 12
equal. You don't get anything like a conventional diatonic scale. You
get major and minor triads, but they sound noticeably different from
the major and minor triads in 12. You don't have a conventional
leading tone. Everything is different. This makes music in 15 equal
sound fresh and lively and vivacious. 15 equal breaks open a smelling
salts capsule under the audience's nose and really wakes 'em up.
By contrast, 19 equal can sound almost identical to 12, and this tends
to bore the audience. "If we wanted to hear 12," their attitude tends
to be, "we would've stayed with 12. Why bother with this?"
Once again, 9 equal sounds radically different from conventional
western music. You hit an audience with 9 equal, and they'll get
excited. But if you have the bad judgment to start the audience out
with the Greek chromatic and diatonic genera, the audience is likely
to snooze off. That stuff sounds almost identical to conventional
western music. The audience fidgets. They shift in their seats. They
start to get antsy. "When are we going to hear the real stuff/" they
start to ask. They get impatient.
Back in the 60s and 70s it used to be chic to play a familiar song
like "Greensleves" in 31 equal and call that "microtonality." Bad bad
bad idea. Ivor Darreg had a better idea -- he used to play visitors 13
equal melodies on a bunch of bronze slats he had set up as tubulongs.
The exotic inharmonic percussive timbre combined with the novel sound
of 13 always perked people up. They got interested. It piqued their
curiosity. They wanted to know more.
Playing "Greensleeves" in 31 equal never worked. 31 equal used to be
touted back in the 60s as some kind of "universal tuning" which,
academics claimed, would be ideal because you could play conventional
western music in it and it would sound almost identical to what we're
familiar with, as well as playing new music.
Well, that didn't fly. No one interested in new music gives a damn
about hearing the same old thing played in the same old way. They want
something NEW. The "old wine in new bottles" is an absolute plague in
cesspools of musical ignorance like the Alternative Lying List, and
you constantly find people wasting their goddamn time playing Fur
Elise in 5-limit diatonic JI. That's crap. It's death. It sounds
lethally boring. No one cares. Jettison that junk. Deep six it. Press
the eject button on that garbage. The way to get people excited about
microtonality is show 'em vividly and audibly, first-hand, just how
different and exciting microtonal tunings can be... And that means
playing radical new tunings. 9 equal, the Greek enharmonic, pelog
slendro, not this "start with what's familiar" crap. Starting with
what's familiar is the kiss of death.
I like this. There was a recent thread over at
rec.music.classical.recordings about whether serialism, 12-tone, the
second Viennese school etc. etc. had "any redeeming
characteristics"--one listener said he'd tried, he'd really tried, but
he found none that he could really enjoy as music. Some people
suggested some early Schoenberg that the listener might "enjoy" but of
course this was totally beside the point. The more logical suggested he
not beat himself over this "failure".
I must confess I'd like to hear Greensleeves in 31 equal.

Steve
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
r***@comcast.net
2009-01-21 20:29:04 UTC
Permalink
On Jan 21, 1:18 pm, Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Post by danstearns
Post by g***@googlemail.com
On 30 Dec 2008, 00:04, Mark & Steven Bornfeld
        At the other extreme, I'm going to try to listen to some of Dan Stearns
and his microtonal mindblowing music.  ;-)
I'm still finding my way around the 12-note scale.
To have to abandon that and think in a whole
new musical universe would be..... unthinkable.
--http://www.gillsmith999.plus.com/
In his 2008 article, "Why teaching microtonality from familiar ->
exotic is a bad idea", Brian McLaren makes the case, one I agree with
FWiW, that if if swimming is your goal , you should forgo timidity as
a matter of course and jump in the deep waters…by analogy, something
akin to what McKenna would refer to as a meaningful, committed, or
heroic dose.
Why Teaching Microtonality from Familiar -> Exotic is a Bad Idea
Brian McLaren
March 3, 2008
The entire idea of trying to introduce microtonality to people by
starting with what's familiar and gradually moving by baby steps to
more exotic tunings is a disastrously bad idea. A lot of people have
done this, and it has _always_ worked out badly.
Let me explain why.
[1] People who are interested in learning about microtonality are
generally not shrinking violets. Any folks who sign up for a class on
microtones are usually among the more adventurous musicians in a
group. Easing these folks into microtonality by starting with trite
junk like quartertones will at first frustrate, and soon annoy and
eventually enrage them. These folks want to hear the real deal, music
that sounds radical and striking. They don't want to hear a bunch of 5-
limit diatonic 12-note JI and listen to someone try to tell 'em that's
microtonal -- they know damn well it isn't. That's pissing on peoples'
legs and telling 'em it's raining. They get fed up with that kind of
condescending treatment _fast_.
[2] If you're dealing with a casual listener who just asks "So what's
all that xenharmonic stuff about?" you want to show casual listeners
_right off_ just how awesome and powerful microtonality can be, and
that means you hit 'em with the wild exotic stuff. Many people
mistakenly imagine that the average listener is conservative or
fearful of novelty. In my experience, not so. The average listener is
much more open-minded and much more eager to immerse hi/rself in
radical new sounds than most folks think. What the average listener
does NOT want is jargon and numerology. You start spouting a bunch of
fancy Greek words (diatoniaion and epimore and epimere and comma) and
drawing lotsa geometric diagrams and numbers on a blackboard, and the
average listener's eyes glaze over. They get sick of that crap
_fast_.
So for an average listener, just hit 'em with radical novel microtonal
music. Don't bother to go into details. You don't even have to tell
'em it's non-octave. If they want to know, you can go into details,
but the music's what matters. Shoot, don't even tell 'em it's
microtonal. Just play it for 'em. They'll love it.
[3] The biggest problems with starting with familiar tunings is that
these are by far the least interesting-sounding of all microtonal
tunings. In fact, most of 'em are boring as crap. So there you are,
droning on through this familiar bland stuff, 5-limit diatonic 12-note
JI, 19 equal in the diatonic mode that sounds just about exactly like
12 equal, and everybody is nodding off. People are starting to leave
the freakin' room. They're rolling their eyes. They're whispering to
one another, "THIS is MICROTONAL? Ye gods, this is BORING!"
BAD way to introduce microtonality. Bad, B*A*D*, _BAAAAD_ idea. Half
your group is likely to sidle out of the room before you work your
way, slowly and gradually, by baby steps, up to the point where the
xenharmonic tunings sounds distinctly Unlike conventional music, and
start to sound spicy and vivid and startlingly new.
[4] Starting with familiar-sounding novels unconsciously creates an
"anchor point." And it's a piss-poor anchor point. See Khaneman and
Tversky's Nobel-prize-winning work on the irrationalities of human
judgment -- "anchoring," which they first categorized and quantified,
is one of the most notable examples.
Anchoring occurs when you skew peoples' beliefs by the way you present
information. For example: let's assume you don't know the population
of Turkey (you probably don't) and I ask you "What's the population of
Turkey? 80 million? 120 million? 140 million?" You'll give me an
answer and it's probably going to be around the middle of the choices
I gave you. But if I ask a different group of people "What's the
population of Turkey? 10 million? 20 million? 30 million?" I'll get a
different set of answers, grouped around the middle of the second set
of choices.
The way the information is presented created an "anchor point" which
distorts people's expectations. In the first example, people's answers
will tend to cluster around 120 million, while in the second example
peoples' answers will tend to cluster around 20 million.
The population of Turkey is 71 million, by the way. Notice how we can
distort people's judgment about the size of the Turkish population
just by using this anchoring technique. Political polls do this all
the time, as do product evaluation polls set up by companies that want
to sell a product. It's all a form of psychological manipulation.
Creeps do this today with the post-9/11 hysteria: "Which do you
prefer? Freedom? Or security?" Anyone who's not brain-damaged will
obviously answer security. Freedom doesn't do you much good if you're
dead. But suppose you change the question -- "Which do you prefer?
Having every aspect of your life controlled by the security state? Or
being free?" Guess which answer people give _then_...?
Such is the power of anchoring.
The problem with starting with a familiar set of 12-like tunings and
gradually moving toward unfamiliar tunings that don't sound like 12 is
that you've created an anchor point -- and your anchor is 12. This is
a bad mistake. By the time you're halfway through giving your
introduction to microtonality, your audience will get the idea -- THE
WRONG IDEA: any tuning is good insofar as it is like 12. If doesn't
sound like 12, it's not so good.
This results in the kind of dismal crap you see on sinkholes of
deluded folly like the Alternative Lying List, where all tunings get
judged in a foolish continuum that runs from "very similar to 12 =
good" and "very different from 12 = bad." This naturally leads to
crazy and insanely stupid conclusions, like "all non-octave tunings =
bad."
The musical reality turns out to be just the opposite. The real value
of microtonal tunings involves getting away from what's familiar.
History shows that the most popular microtonal tunings are those which
audibly differ most drastically from 12 equal. 15 equal is extremely
popular, used by Wendy Carlos, Augusto Novaro, Ivor Darreg, Bill
Wesley, Easley Balckwood, myself, and many many others. 15 equal is
popular because it sounds radically and wildly different from 12
equal. You don't get anything like a conventional diatonic scale. You
get major and minor triads, but they sound noticeably different from
the major and minor triads in 12. You don't have a conventional
leading tone. Everything is different. This makes music in 15 equal
sound fresh and lively and vivacious. 15 equal breaks open a smelling
salts capsule under the audience's nose and really wakes 'em up.
By contrast, 19 equal can sound almost identical to 12, and this tends
to bore the audience. "If we wanted to hear 12," their attitude tends
to be, "we would've stayed with 12. Why bother with this?"
Once again, 9 equal sounds radically different from conventional
western music. You hit an audience with 9 equal, and they'll get
excited. But if you have the bad judgment to start the audience out
with the Greek chromatic and diatonic genera, the audience is likely
to snooze off. That stuff sounds almost identical to conventional
western music. The audience fidgets. They shift in their seats. They
start to get antsy. "When are we going to hear the real stuff/" they
start to ask. They get impatient.
Back in the 60s and 70s it used to be chic to play a familiar song
like "Greensleves" in 31 equal and call that "microtonality." Bad bad
bad idea. Ivor Darreg had a better idea -- he used to play visitors 13
equal melodies on a bunch of bronze slats he had set up as tubulongs.
The exotic inharmonic percussive timbre combined with the novel sound
of 13 always perked people up. They got interested. It piqued their
curiosity. They wanted to know more.
Playing "Greensleeves" in 31 equal never worked. 31 equal used to be
touted back in the 60s as some kind of "universal tuning" which,
academics claimed, would be ideal because you could play conventional
western music in it and it would sound almost identical to what we're
familiar with, as well as playing new music.
Well, that didn't fly. No one interested in new music gives a damn
about hearing the same old thing played in the same old way. They want
something NEW. The "old wine in new bottles" is an absolute plague in
cesspools of musical ignorance like the Alternative Lying List, and
you constantly find people wasting their goddamn time playing Fur
Elise in 5-limit diatonic JI. That's crap. It's death. It sounds
lethally boring. No one cares. Jettison that junk. Deep six it. Press
the eject button on that garbage. The way to get people excited about
microtonality is show 'em vividly and audibly, first-hand, just how
different and exciting microtonal tunings can be... And that means
playing radical new
...
read more »- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Lightnin' Hopkins
Freddie King
Hank Williams Sr.
Willie Nelson
Merle Haggard
Bill Monroe
Chet Atkins
Hendrix
Jerry Reed

That should free your mind off complexities, and to notice that
beautiful music does not to be complex, but it does need to be
heartfelt..
+1 to Tony on periods of silence as well..
danstearns
2009-01-23 00:31:34 UTC
Permalink
hi there mark a steven, and thanks for the interest .here's a list by
the same author of some suggested micro-listening,and seeing how it
includes me, it's got to be good, right?
<emoticon of your choosing goes here>

McLaren
Wednesday, March 12, 2008

Here's a list of really _great_ microtonal music to hit listeners in
the face with. Hell, don't even tell 'em it's xenahrmonic, just play
it for 'em and watch their brains turn to strawberry jelly and ooze
out their ears:

[1] Ivor Darreg - Prelude Number One in 19 equal
[2] Bill Wesley - track 5 from "For A Few Notes More" in 35 note
Pythagorean
[3] Kyle Gann - "Custer and Sitting Bull" 13 limit JI
[4] Jeff Stayton - track 3 from "Industrial Raga"
[5] Jonathan Glasier - track 10 from "The Microtonal Music Of Jonathan
Glasier," 19 equal guitar
[6] Easley Blackwood - 15 equal and 13 equal and 23 equal compositions
from the CD "Twelve Microtonal Etudes for Electronic Music Media"
[6] Glenn Branca - Symphony No. 3 for the first 128 members of the
harmonic series
[7] Carter Scholz - "Lattice" from the CD "8 compositions"
[8] Larry Polansky - "Another You," variations on "My Funny Valentine"
for microtonal 17-limit JI harp
[9] "Portrait In Saws of Two Tuning Theorists," No. 2, Erv Wilson, by
Warren Burt, 17 limit JI Farey Series tuning
[10] Neil Haverstick - "Birdwalk," 19 equal
[11] X. J. Scott "Alligator Scamperizo" 11 equal + 17 equal from the
CD "Zxhrgenian Night Melodies"
[12] William Schottstaedt - Dinosaur Music, Colony Five, The Gong-
Tormented Sea, or any of his other masterpieces
[13] Jean-Claude Risset - "Songs," "Inharmonique," "Mutations"
[14] Wendy Carlos - "Beauty in the Beast" from the CD of the same
title, also "A Woman's Song" from the same CD
[15] Ivor Darreg - 9 equal, 16 equal, 17 equal, 20 equal, 22 equal, 31
equal from "Beyond the Xenharmonic Frontier" Volume One, "All Systems
Go!"
[16] John Bischoff "Next Tone, Please"" in 31 equal from the CD
"Artificial Horizon"
[17] Gamelan Pacifica - any track from their CD "Trance Gong"
[18] Gamelan Son Of Lion - anything from Barbara Benary's CD of
gamelan music
[19] Skip LaPlante - Variations in 13 equal from his CD
[20] Johnny Reinhard - reconstructed Charles Ives "Universe Symphony"
[21] Kraig Grady - pretty much anything from any of his CDs, it's all
excellent
[22] Jon Catler - Sleeping Beauty
[23] "Mister Yasser's Piano" by Warren Burt
[24] Julian Cope - "Breath Of Odin" 1999 Good luck find it. Totally
out print. Fortunately, you can download it on bittorrent.
[25] M. Joel Mandelbaum - "Andante Cantabile" from the CD
"Electronica"
[26] Lydia Ayers - just another anything from any of her 3 excellent
computer music CDs. I'm particularly partial to "Bioluminescence" but
it's all wonderful magical JI computer music.
[27] Elaine Walker - "Men and Martian Machines" in 19 equal
[28] Ben Johnston - String Quartet No. 9 for 31 limit JI
[29] Harry Partch - music for the film "Daphne of the Dunes," also
"Ring around the Moon"
[30] Ivor Darreg - 5 equal, 10 equal, 20 equal from the 2-CD set
"Multiples Of Five"
[31] Ivor Darreg - both 7-limit JI compositions for Elastic Tuning
Organ from the CD "More Microtonal Music by Ivor Darreg"
[32] Gary Lee Nelson, "Fractal Mountains" in 96 equal
[33] Three Inverse Genera, 19 limit JI tuning forks, Warren Burt
[34] Genesis (Arabic Meantone), Ros bandt
[35] "From Temporal Silence," 60 equal, Richard Boulanger
[36] "Farabi" 31 equal, by John Bischoff & Tim Perkis
[37] Meditation on Two Themes from the Day of Existence," 72 equal,
Ivan Wyschnegradsky
[38] "Preludio A Cristobal Colon," Julian Carillo, 96 equal
[39] "Three Quarter-Tone Pieces," Charles Ives
[40] "Four FM Percussion Studies," Eric Stanley, 24 equal
[41] "A Little Girl Dreams Of Taking the Veil," 13 limit JI, Erling
Wold
[42] "Paradigms Lost" and "Bodhisattvas in Berkeley? Mu!" by David
Doty, 7 limit JI, from his CD "Uncommon Practice"
[43] "Two Studies On Ancient Greek Scales," Harry Partch, 7 limit JI
[44] "Fulcrum" and "Lachrimae" by Mark Trayle, harmonic series 1-60
[45] "A Study In Fives" (25 equal) and "De Spiritu Sancto" Wilson
stellated [1,3,5,7] hexany, by Paul Rapoport
[46] "Quadripartite," William Meadows, 19 equal
[47] "Composition en Quarets de Ton," also "Etude Sure Les Mouvements
Rotatoires" by Ivan Wyschnegradsky
[48] "Sleeping Beauty," Allen Strange, 7-limit JI, also the
algorithmic piece he did for the TX802 that maps altitudes on a map
into tones
[49] "31 equal electric guitar solo," Buzz Kimball
[50] "Flight," 72 equal, Ezra Sims
[51] "Whispers Out Of Time," non-just non-equal-tempered tuning, James
Dashow
[52] "Suite for Microtonal Piano," 7 limit JI, Ben Johnston
[53] "Xenomelophilia," Martin Bartlett, JI
[54] "Bending Space," JI William Alves, from the CD "The Terrain of
Possibilities"
[55] "Gending Alexander," also "Cornish Lancaran," Lou Harrison, from
the CD "Gamelan music of Lou Harrison"
[56] "Dance Of the Testifiers," JI, Erling Wold, from the CD "Music Of
Love"
[57] "Yquem," Bruce Mather, 48 equal
[58] Henk Badings, "Sonata 3 for viola" and "Reeks voor Kleine
Klanksukken," 31 equal, from the CD "50 Years of Stichting Huyghens-
Fokker"
[59] "Mysteries," 19 equal by Neil Haverstick from the CD "Acoustic
Stick"
[60] "Duet For Morphine and Cymbal," William Sethares, non-just non-
equal-tempered tuning, from the CD "Xentonality"
[61] "Klaviers" by Iannis Xenakis, 72 equal
[62] "Traveling Music," JI, Loren Rush
[63] "It's Not That Simple," 24 equal, Brian Reinbolt
[64] Track 4 from "Fear Of Open Spaces," Jeff Stayton, 22 equal guitar
overdub
[65] Track 1 from "The Microtonal Music of Jonathan Glasier," 100-
equal harp built by Pepe Estevan
[66] "Steam" Partch 43-limit + 12 equal simultaneously, by Julia
Wolfe, from the CD "Arsenal of Democracy"
[67] "I Heard A Thousand Blended Notes," Jim Horton, 17-limit JI
[68] "Harbinger," JI, David Behrman, track 6 from the CD "Unforeseen
Events"
[69] "Transparences" and "Cosmos" from the CD "Homma A
Wyschnegradsky," 24 equal
[70] "Mata" (The Mother), 24 equal, Alois Haba
[71] "Songs of the Wind," Sarah Hopkins, 7-limit JI whirly, from the
CD "Austral Voices" (though this is arguably not very microtonal,
since the only really non-12 pitch is the just 7th)
[72] "Water Music" I & II, 11 equal & 48 equal, William Schottstaedt,
also "Dinosaur Music," from the CD "Dinosaur Music." More masterpieces
by the best living American composer.
[73] "Stria," 13 equal or 9th root of phi if you prefer, by John
Chowning. From the CD "Computer Music of John Chowning"
[74] "The Well-Tempered Piano," JI, but impossible to get because
LaMonte Young has raised the price of this multi-CD set so high no one
can afford it.
[75] "The Harp Of New Albion," JI, Terry Riley. Arguably not very
xenharmonic, since it's only 7-limit JI and not exotic 7-limit like
Doty's "Bodhisattvas in Berekely? Mu!"
Follows a list of music whish is xenharmonic but not microtonal. That
is, this music sounds distinctly and audibly different from
conventional 12 equal, but does not necessarily adhere to a single
specific set of pitches. In some cases it's electronic tape music; in
other cases it uses acoustic "found" pitches; while in other cases
it's vocal and exotic and highly-non-12 but not systematically so.
[1] "Sirens" by Anna Homler. From the CD "Do Ya Say Di Do"
[2] "Scambi," by Henri Pousseur
[3] "Noise Study" by James Tenney
[4] "Sud" by Jean-Claude Risset
[5] Csound and guitar feedback by Jeff Stayton, from the CD "Fear Of
Open Spaces"
[6] "Forbidden Planet" soundtrack by Louis & Bebe Barron
[7] "Low Speed," "Moonflight," many others by Validmir Ussachevsky &
Otto Luening; also "A Poem In Cycles and Bells" by Ussachevsky &
Luening from the out of print Lousiville Orchestra LP
[8] "Piano Tuna Fish Scale" and "Green Ideas Sleep Furiously" by Ivor
Darreg
[9] "Skala Nuova" by Oskar Sala from his CD "My Marvellous
Instrument"
[10] "Risveglio di una Citta" by Luigi Russolo. From the CD "Futurism
and Dada Reviewed"
[11] "Over and Under" by Ellen Fullman
[12] "Threnody For the Victims Of Hiroshima" by Kryzstof Pendercki.
Notated as quartertone, but, really, you don't hear it that way
[13] "Transparence" and "Flight of the Cybernaut" by Marc Battier.
[14] "Turntable Quartet" by Dan Stearns
[15] "Arras" and "Solar Ellipse" by Barry Truax
[16] "Apocalypse," Quatermass," "Two Moons of Quatermass," "Luna Park"
by Tod Dockstader, America's greatest electroacoustic tape composer
[17] Almost anything by Pierre Henry and Pierre Schaefer
[18] "Fourth World Music" by Jon Hassel
[19] "Three Constructions" by John Cage
[20] Music for Wing, Godzilla and waterphone - Jonathan Glasier
[21] "Glyptodont" by Skip LaPlante
[22] XX by Elodie Lauten
[23] "Kyema: Intermediate States" by Eliane Radigue
[24] Anything by Robert Rich. Doesn't sound microtonal, but is clearly
xenharmonic.
[25] "Metal Machine Music" by Lou Reed
[26] "Mesa" for cybersonic bandoneon; also, "Hornpipe," by Gordon
Mumma
[27] "I of IV" and "Beautiful Soup" by Pauline Oliveros
[28] "Harmony 101" and "Tears for Tlaloc" by Bill Wesley
[29] "Neural Synthesis Numbers 6-9" by David Tudor
[29] "Traffic Study" by Paul Lansky
[30] The live electronic version of "Kontakte" by Karlheinz
Stockhausen where all the sounds come from an electronically
manipulated gong
[31] The Hub - most of their music sounds non-12, but not
systematically so. They did some pieces in specific recognizable
scales with timbres that let you hear the tuning, but not a lot.
[32] Tuvan throat-singing.
[33] "Deep Listening" CD by Pauline Oliveros
[34] Almost all French spectral music.
[35] "Kraanerg" and "Eonta" by Iannis Xenakis.
[36] "Atmospheres" and "Lux Aeterna" and "Volumina" by Gyorgy Ligeti
[37] Any compositions performed by Laetitia Sonami using "The Lady's
Glove"
[38] Any compositions performed by Michel Waiszwicz using "The Hands"
[39] "Swan Song" by Max Mathews
[40] "Quintet" by Ezra Sims. Uses harmonies made up of difference
tones.
[41] "Critical Band" by James Tenney
[42] "Hamiltonian Circuit" by Carter Scholz from his CD "8
Compositions"
[43] Any installation by Trimpin
[44] Anything by Einsturzende Neubauten
[45] Many of the tracks from the CDs of Skinny Puppy or Severed Heads
[46] Pretty much anything made using MAX/MSP. For more videos of this
stuff than would be required to choke a medium-sized dog, see
http://youtube.com/user/cycling74com
Snarkified version here:
http://musicthing.blogspot.com/2007/07/ten-entertaining-videos-about-maxmsp.html
Basically, this is music without a beat and without a melody and
without audible organization. Lotsa noise flailing around. Doesn't
sound like conventional 12-equal to me. Doesn't sound microtonal
either. YMMV.
[47] Noise music by Crash Worship or that piece by Glenn Branca for 30
electric guitars "amplified beyond the threshold of audible pain."
Yum. Zippy the Pinhead asks, "Are we making microtonal music yet?"
[48] "Cartridge Music" by the Coin-Flipping Kook. Doesn't sound like
12. Doesn't sound like much of anything. Again, YMMV.
[49] Indusitral noise-drone music by groups like Decoded Feedback. So
much noise it's hard to tell what tuning it's in. Doesn't sound like
conventional 12 to me, but with this kind of feedback and extreme
noise processing, you'd be hard-pressed to say what tuning it's in.
One thing for sure, this ain't your daddy's Dvoark New World Symphony,
kiddies.
[50] Orchestral timbre-magiicians like Henri Dutilleux or French
electroacoustic composers like Francois Bayle. None of this stuff
sounds particularly 12-like to me, but it doesn't sound
_systematically_ microtonal. Could be I'm just missing something.
[51] Journeys on the Winds of Time by Alan Lamb. This guy put contact
microphones on abandoned telegraph wires strung across the Australian
outback. Doesn't sound like anything I've ever heard, and it's
xenharmonic as hell, but clearly not _systematically_ microtonal.
[52] "Black Lightning" from the cassette "Critters" or the tracks on
"Identity" by Tom Nunn
http://www.edgetonerecords.com/catalog/4047.html
Tom builds his own instruments and his music sounds like nothing else.
Highly xenharmonic...but once again, not _specifically_ microtonal.
Tom Nunn typically doesn't tune his T-rodimbas or the spines of the
Crustacean to a particular definite xenharmonic scale. They just are
what they are.
[53] "Opus Contra Naturam," electroacoustic music by Dan Stearns. This
falls somewhere in between industrial music and tape musique concrete
collage. It's highly xenharmonic, but don't expect to hear, say, 37-
equal triads making a nice IV-V-I chord progression. Dan doesn't have
a lot of patience with the major and minor triad, he's tired of 'em,
and the thinks you should be too, and that's what makes his music so
refreshing and so vibrant and vividly memorable.





On Jan 21, 2:18 pm, Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Post by danstearns
Post by g***@googlemail.com
On 30 Dec 2008, 00:04, Mark & Steven Bornfeld
        At the other extreme, I'm going to try to listen to some of Dan Stearns
and his microtonal mindblowing music.  ;-)
I'm still finding my way around the 12-note scale.
To have to abandon that and think in a whole
new musical universe would be..... unthinkable.
--http://www.gillsmith999.plus.com/
In his 2008 article, "Why teaching microtonality from familiar ->
exotic is a bad idea", Brian McLaren makes the case, one I agree with
FWiW, that if if swimming is your goal , you should forgo timidity as
a matter of course and jump in the deep waters…by analogy, something
akin to what McKenna would refer to as a meaningful, committed, or
heroic dose.
Why Teaching Microtonality from Familiar -> Exotic is a Bad Idea
Brian McLaren
March 3, 2008
The entire idea of trying to introduce microtonality to people by
starting with what's familiar and gradually moving by baby steps to
more exotic tunings is a disastrously bad idea. A lot of people have
done this, and it has _always_ worked out badly.
Let me explain why.
[1] People who are interested in learning about microtonality are
generally not shrinking violets. Any folks who sign up for a class on
microtones are usually among the more adventurous musicians in a
group. Easing these folks into microtonality by starting with trite
junk like quartertones will at first frustrate, and soon annoy and
eventually enrage them. These folks want to hear the real deal, music
that sounds radical and striking. They don't want to hear a bunch of 5-
limit diatonic 12-note JI and listen to someone try to tell 'em that's
microtonal -- they know damn well it isn't. That's pissing on peoples'
legs and telling 'em it's raining. They get fed up with that kind of
condescending treatment _fast_.
[2] If you're dealing with a casual listener who just asks "So what's
all that xenharmonic stuff about?" you want to show casual listeners
_right off_ just how awesome and powerful microtonality can be, and
that means you hit 'em with the wild exotic stuff. Many people
mistakenly imagine that the average listener is conservative or
fearful of novelty. In my experience, not so. The average listener is
much more open-minded and much more eager to immerse hi/rself in
radical new sounds than most folks think. What the average listener
does NOT want is jargon and numerology. You start spouting a bunch of
fancy Greek words (diatoniaion and epimore and epimere and comma) and
drawing lotsa geometric diagrams and numbers on a blackboard, and the
average listener's eyes glaze over. They get sick of that crap
_fast_.
So for an average listener, just hit 'em with radical novel microtonal
music. Don't bother to go into details. You don't even have to tell
'em it's non-octave. If they want to know, you can go into details,
but the music's what matters. Shoot, don't even tell 'em it's
microtonal. Just play it for 'em. They'll love it.
[3] The biggest problems with starting with familiar tunings is that
these are by far the least interesting-sounding of all microtonal
tunings. In fact, most of 'em are boring as crap. So there you are,
droning on through this familiar bland stuff, 5-limit diatonic 12-note
JI, 19 equal in the diatonic mode that sounds just about exactly like
12 equal, and everybody is nodding off. People are starting to leave
the freakin' room. They're rolling their eyes. They're whispering to
one another, "THIS is MICROTONAL? Ye gods, this is BORING!"
BAD way to introduce microtonality. Bad, B*A*D*, _BAAAAD_ idea. Half
your group is likely to sidle out of the room before you work your
way, slowly and gradually, by baby steps, up to the point where the
xenharmonic tunings sounds distinctly Unlike conventional music, and
start to sound spicy and vivid and startlingly new.
[4] Starting with familiar-sounding novels unconsciously creates an
"anchor point." And it's a piss-poor anchor point. See Khaneman and
Tversky's Nobel-prize-winning work on the irrationalities of human
judgment -- "anchoring," which they first categorized and quantified,
is one of the most notable examples.
Anchoring occurs when you skew peoples' beliefs by the way you present
information. For example: let's assume you don't know the population
of Turkey (you probably don't) and I ask you "What's the population of
Turkey? 80 million? 120 million? 140 million?" You'll give me an
answer and it's probably going to be around the middle of the choices
I gave you. But if I ask a different group of people "What's the
population of Turkey? 10 million? 20 million? 30 million?" I'll get a
different set of answers, grouped around the middle of the second set
of choices.
The way the information is presented created an "anchor point" which
distorts people's expectations. In the first example, people's answers
will tend to cluster around 120 million, while in the second example
peoples' answers will tend to cluster around 20 million.
The population of Turkey is 71 million, by the way. Notice how we can
distort people's judgment about the size of the Turkish population
just by using this anchoring technique. Political polls do this all
the time, as do product evaluation polls set up by companies that want
to sell a product. It's all a form of psychological manipulation.
Creeps do this today with the post-9/11 hysteria: "Which do you
prefer? Freedom? Or security?" Anyone who's not brain-damaged will
obviously answer security. Freedom doesn't do you much good if you're
dead. But suppose you change the question -- "Which do you prefer?
Having every aspect of your life controlled by the security state? Or
being free?" Guess which answer people give _then_...?
Such is the power of anchoring.
The problem with starting with a familiar set of 12-like tunings and
gradually moving toward unfamiliar tunings that don't sound like 12 is
that you've created an anchor point -- and your anchor is 12. This is
a bad mistake. By the time you're halfway through giving your
introduction to microtonality, your audience will get the idea -- THE
WRONG IDEA: any tuning is good insofar as it is like 12. If doesn't
sound like 12, it's not so good.
This results in the kind of dismal crap you see on sinkholes of
deluded folly like the Alternative Lying List, where all tunings get
judged in a foolish continuum that runs from "very similar to 12 =
good" and "very different from 12 = bad." This naturally leads to
crazy and insanely stupid conclusions, like "all non-octave tunings =
bad."
The musical reality turns out to be just the opposite. The real value
of microtonal tunings involves getting away from what's familiar.
History shows that the most popular microtonal tunings are those which
audibly differ most drastically from 12 equal. 15 equal is extremely
popular, used by Wendy Carlos, Augusto Novaro, Ivor Darreg, Bill
Wesley, Easley Balckwood, myself, and many many others. 15 equal is
popular because it sounds radically and wildly different from 12
equal. You don't get anything like a conventional diatonic scale. You
get major and minor triads, but they sound noticeably different from
the major and minor triads in 12. You don't have a conventional
leading tone. Everything is different. This makes music in 15 equal
sound fresh and lively and vivacious. 15 equal breaks open a smelling
salts capsule under the audience's nose and really wakes 'em up.
By contrast, 19 equal can sound almost identical to 12, and this tends
to bore the audience. "If we wanted to hear 12," their attitude tends
to be, "we would've stayed with 12. Why bother with this?"
Once again, 9 equal sounds radically different from conventional
western music. You hit an audience with 9 equal, and they'll get
excited. But if you have the bad judgment to start the audience out
with the Greek chromatic and diatonic genera, the audience is likely
to snooze off. That stuff sounds almost identical to conventional
western music. The audience fidgets. They shift in their seats. They
start to get antsy. "When are we going to hear the real stuff/" they
start to ask. They get impatient.
Back in the 60s and 70s it used to be chic to play a familiar song
like "Greensleves" in 31 equal and call that "microtonality." Bad bad
bad idea. Ivor Darreg had a better idea -- he used to play visitors 13
equal melodies on a bunch of bronze slats he had set up as tubulongs.
The exotic inharmonic percussive timbre combined with the novel sound
of 13 always perked people up. They got interested. It piqued their
curiosity. They wanted to know more.
Playing "Greensleeves" in 31 equal never worked. 31 equal used to be
touted back in the 60s as some kind of "universal tuning" which,
academics claimed, would be ideal because you could play conventional
western music in it and it would sound almost identical to what we're
familiar with, as well as playing new music.
Well, that didn't fly. No one interested in new music gives a damn
about hearing the same old thing played in the same old way. They want
something NEW. The "old wine in new bottles" is an absolute plague in
cesspools of musical ignorance like the Alternative Lying List, and
you constantly find people wasting their goddamn time playing Fur
Elise in 5-limit diatonic JI. That's crap. It's death. It sounds
lethally boring. No one cares. Jettison that junk. Deep six it. Press
the eject button on that garbage. The way to get people excited about
microtonality is show 'em vividly and audibly, first-hand, just how
different and exciting microtonal tunings can be... And that means
playing radical new
...
read more »- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Steven Bornfeld
2009-01-23 02:38:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by danstearns
hi there mark a steven, and thanks for the interest .here's a list by
the same author of some suggested micro-listening,and seeing how it
includes me, it's got to be good, right?
<emoticon of your choosing goes here>
That's quite a list, and I will admit I'm a bit intrigued--though I've
only heard of a handful of these.
I suspect there is a hugh volume of theory related to compositional
techniques used by microtonal composers. Maybe I should just learn the
secret handshake.

Best,
Steve
Post by danstearns
McLaren
Wednesday, March 12, 2008
Here's a list of really _great_ microtonal music to hit listeners in
the face with. Hell, don't even tell 'em it's xenahrmonic, just play
it for 'em and watch their brains turn to strawberry jelly and ooze
[1] Ivor Darreg - Prelude Number One in 19 equal
[2] Bill Wesley - track 5 from "For A Few Notes More" in 35 note
Pythagorean
[3] Kyle Gann - "Custer and Sitting Bull" 13 limit JI
[4] Jeff Stayton - track 3 from "Industrial Raga"
[5] Jonathan Glasier - track 10 from "The Microtonal Music Of Jonathan
Glasier," 19 equal guitar
[6] Easley Blackwood - 15 equal and 13 equal and 23 equal compositions
from the CD "Twelve Microtonal Etudes for Electronic Music Media"
[6] Glenn Branca - Symphony No. 3 for the first 128 members of the
harmonic series
[7] Carter Scholz - "Lattice" from the CD "8 compositions"
[8] Larry Polansky - "Another You," variations on "My Funny Valentine"
for microtonal 17-limit JI harp
[9] "Portrait In Saws of Two Tuning Theorists," No. 2, Erv Wilson, by
Warren Burt, 17 limit JI Farey Series tuning
[10] Neil Haverstick - "Birdwalk," 19 equal
[11] X. J. Scott "Alligator Scamperizo" 11 equal + 17 equal from the
CD "Zxhrgenian Night Melodies"
[12] William Schottstaedt - Dinosaur Music, Colony Five, The Gong-
Tormented Sea, or any of his other masterpieces
[13] Jean-Claude Risset - "Songs," "Inharmonique," "Mutations"
[14] Wendy Carlos - "Beauty in the Beast" from the CD of the same
title, also "A Woman's Song" from the same CD
[15] Ivor Darreg - 9 equal, 16 equal, 17 equal, 20 equal, 22 equal, 31
equal from "Beyond the Xenharmonic Frontier" Volume One, "All Systems
Go!"
[16] John Bischoff "Next Tone, Please"" in 31 equal from the CD
"Artificial Horizon"
[17] Gamelan Pacifica - any track from their CD "Trance Gong"
[18] Gamelan Son Of Lion - anything from Barbara Benary's CD of
gamelan music
[19] Skip LaPlante - Variations in 13 equal from his CD
[20] Johnny Reinhard - reconstructed Charles Ives "Universe Symphony"
[21] Kraig Grady - pretty much anything from any of his CDs, it's all
excellent
[22] Jon Catler - Sleeping Beauty
[23] "Mister Yasser's Piano" by Warren Burt
[24] Julian Cope - "Breath Of Odin" 1999 Good luck find it. Totally
out print. Fortunately, you can download it on bittorrent.
[25] M. Joel Mandelbaum - "Andante Cantabile" from the CD
"Electronica"
[26] Lydia Ayers - just another anything from any of her 3 excellent
computer music CDs. I'm particularly partial to "Bioluminescence" but
it's all wonderful magical JI computer music.
[27] Elaine Walker - "Men and Martian Machines" in 19 equal
[28] Ben Johnston - String Quartet No. 9 for 31 limit JI
[29] Harry Partch - music for the film "Daphne of the Dunes," also
"Ring around the Moon"
[30] Ivor Darreg - 5 equal, 10 equal, 20 equal from the 2-CD set
"Multiples Of Five"
[31] Ivor Darreg - both 7-limit JI compositions for Elastic Tuning
Organ from the CD "More Microtonal Music by Ivor Darreg"
[32] Gary Lee Nelson, "Fractal Mountains" in 96 equal
[33] Three Inverse Genera, 19 limit JI tuning forks, Warren Burt
[34] Genesis (Arabic Meantone), Ros bandt
[35] "From Temporal Silence," 60 equal, Richard Boulanger
[36] "Farabi" 31 equal, by John Bischoff & Tim Perkis
[37] Meditation on Two Themes from the Day of Existence," 72 equal,
Ivan Wyschnegradsky
[38] "Preludio A Cristobal Colon," Julian Carillo, 96 equal
[39] "Three Quarter-Tone Pieces," Charles Ives
[40] "Four FM Percussion Studies," Eric Stanley, 24 equal
[41] "A Little Girl Dreams Of Taking the Veil," 13 limit JI, Erling
Wold
[42] "Paradigms Lost" and "Bodhisattvas in Berkeley? Mu!" by David
Doty, 7 limit JI, from his CD "Uncommon Practice"
[43] "Two Studies On Ancient Greek Scales," Harry Partch, 7 limit JI
[44] "Fulcrum" and "Lachrimae" by Mark Trayle, harmonic series 1-60
[45] "A Study In Fives" (25 equal) and "De Spiritu Sancto" Wilson
stellated [1,3,5,7] hexany, by Paul Rapoport
[46] "Quadripartite," William Meadows, 19 equal
[47] "Composition en Quarets de Ton," also "Etude Sure Les Mouvements
Rotatoires" by Ivan Wyschnegradsky
[48] "Sleeping Beauty," Allen Strange, 7-limit JI, also the
algorithmic piece he did for the TX802 that maps altitudes on a map
into tones
[49] "31 equal electric guitar solo," Buzz Kimball
[50] "Flight," 72 equal, Ezra Sims
[51] "Whispers Out Of Time," non-just non-equal-tempered tuning, James
Dashow
[52] "Suite for Microtonal Piano," 7 limit JI, Ben Johnston
[53] "Xenomelophilia," Martin Bartlett, JI
[54] "Bending Space," JI William Alves, from the CD "The Terrain of
Possibilities"
[55] "Gending Alexander," also "Cornish Lancaran," Lou Harrison, from
the CD "Gamelan music of Lou Harrison"
[56] "Dance Of the Testifiers," JI, Erling Wold, from the CD "Music Of
Love"
[57] "Yquem," Bruce Mather, 48 equal
[58] Henk Badings, "Sonata 3 for viola" and "Reeks voor Kleine
Klanksukken," 31 equal, from the CD "50 Years of Stichting Huyghens-
Fokker"
[59] "Mysteries," 19 equal by Neil Haverstick from the CD "Acoustic
Stick"
[60] "Duet For Morphine and Cymbal," William Sethares, non-just non-
equal-tempered tuning, from the CD "Xentonality"
[61] "Klaviers" by Iannis Xenakis, 72 equal
[62] "Traveling Music," JI, Loren Rush
[63] "It's Not That Simple," 24 equal, Brian Reinbolt
[64] Track 4 from "Fear Of Open Spaces," Jeff Stayton, 22 equal guitar
overdub
[65] Track 1 from "The Microtonal Music of Jonathan Glasier," 100-
equal harp built by Pepe Estevan
[66] "Steam" Partch 43-limit + 12 equal simultaneously, by Julia
Wolfe, from the CD "Arsenal of Democracy"
[67] "I Heard A Thousand Blended Notes," Jim Horton, 17-limit JI
[68] "Harbinger," JI, David Behrman, track 6 from the CD "Unforeseen
Events"
[69] "Transparences" and "Cosmos" from the CD "Homma A
Wyschnegradsky," 24 equal
[70] "Mata" (The Mother), 24 equal, Alois Haba
[71] "Songs of the Wind," Sarah Hopkins, 7-limit JI whirly, from the
CD "Austral Voices" (though this is arguably not very microtonal,
since the only really non-12 pitch is the just 7th)
[72] "Water Music" I & II, 11 equal & 48 equal, William Schottstaedt,
also "Dinosaur Music," from the CD "Dinosaur Music." More masterpieces
by the best living American composer.
[73] "Stria," 13 equal or 9th root of phi if you prefer, by John
Chowning. From the CD "Computer Music of John Chowning"
[74] "The Well-Tempered Piano," JI, but impossible to get because
LaMonte Young has raised the price of this multi-CD set so high no one
can afford it.
[75] "The Harp Of New Albion," JI, Terry Riley. Arguably not very
xenharmonic, since it's only 7-limit JI and not exotic 7-limit like
Doty's "Bodhisattvas in Berekely? Mu!"
Follows a list of music whish is xenharmonic but not microtonal. That
is, this music sounds distinctly and audibly different from
conventional 12 equal, but does not necessarily adhere to a single
specific set of pitches. In some cases it's electronic tape music; in
other cases it uses acoustic "found" pitches; while in other cases
it's vocal and exotic and highly-non-12 but not systematically so.
[1] "Sirens" by Anna Homler. From the CD "Do Ya Say Di Do"
[2] "Scambi," by Henri Pousseur
[3] "Noise Study" by James Tenney
[4] "Sud" by Jean-Claude Risset
[5] Csound and guitar feedback by Jeff Stayton, from the CD "Fear Of
Open Spaces"
[6] "Forbidden Planet" soundtrack by Louis & Bebe Barron
[7] "Low Speed," "Moonflight," many others by Validmir Ussachevsky &
Otto Luening; also "A Poem In Cycles and Bells" by Ussachevsky &
Luening from the out of print Lousiville Orchestra LP
[8] "Piano Tuna Fish Scale" and "Green Ideas Sleep Furiously" by Ivor
Darreg
[9] "Skala Nuova" by Oskar Sala from his CD "My Marvellous
Instrument"
[10] "Risveglio di una Citta" by Luigi Russolo. From the CD "Futurism
and Dada Reviewed"
[11] "Over and Under" by Ellen Fullman
[12] "Threnody For the Victims Of Hiroshima" by Kryzstof Pendercki.
Notated as quartertone, but, really, you don't hear it that way
[13] "Transparence" and "Flight of the Cybernaut" by Marc Battier.
[14] "Turntable Quartet" by Dan Stearns
[15] "Arras" and "Solar Ellipse" by Barry Truax
[16] "Apocalypse," Quatermass," "Two Moons of Quatermass," "Luna Park"
by Tod Dockstader, America's greatest electroacoustic tape composer
[17] Almost anything by Pierre Henry and Pierre Schaefer
[18] "Fourth World Music" by Jon Hassel
[19] "Three Constructions" by John Cage
[20] Music for Wing, Godzilla and waterphone - Jonathan Glasier
[21] "Glyptodont" by Skip LaPlante
[22] XX by Elodie Lauten
[23] "Kyema: Intermediate States" by Eliane Radigue
[24] Anything by Robert Rich. Doesn't sound microtonal, but is clearly
xenharmonic.
[25] "Metal Machine Music" by Lou Reed
[26] "Mesa" for cybersonic bandoneon; also, "Hornpipe," by Gordon
Mumma
[27] "I of IV" and "Beautiful Soup" by Pauline Oliveros
[28] "Harmony 101" and "Tears for Tlaloc" by Bill Wesley
[29] "Neural Synthesis Numbers 6-9" by David Tudor
[29] "Traffic Study" by Paul Lansky
[30] The live electronic version of "Kontakte" by Karlheinz
Stockhausen where all the sounds come from an electronically
manipulated gong
[31] The Hub - most of their music sounds non-12, but not
systematically so. They did some pieces in specific recognizable
scales with timbres that let you hear the tuning, but not a lot.
[32] Tuvan throat-singing.
[33] "Deep Listening" CD by Pauline Oliveros
[34] Almost all French spectral music.
[35] "Kraanerg" and "Eonta" by Iannis Xenakis.
[36] "Atmospheres" and "Lux Aeterna" and "Volumina" by Gyorgy Ligeti
[37] Any compositions performed by Laetitia Sonami using "The Lady's
Glove"
[38] Any compositions performed by Michel Waiszwicz using "The Hands"
[39] "Swan Song" by Max Mathews
[40] "Quintet" by Ezra Sims. Uses harmonies made up of difference
tones.
[41] "Critical Band" by James Tenney
[42] "Hamiltonian Circuit" by Carter Scholz from his CD "8
Compositions"
[43] Any installation by Trimpin
[44] Anything by Einsturzende Neubauten
[45] Many of the tracks from the CDs of Skinny Puppy or Severed Heads
[46] Pretty much anything made using MAX/MSP. For more videos of this
stuff than would be required to choke a medium-sized dog, see
http://youtube.com/user/cycling74com
http://musicthing.blogspot.com/2007/07/ten-entertaining-videos-about-maxmsp.html
Basically, this is music without a beat and without a melody and
without audible organization. Lotsa noise flailing around. Doesn't
sound like conventional 12-equal to me. Doesn't sound microtonal
either. YMMV.
[47] Noise music by Crash Worship or that piece by Glenn Branca for 30
electric guitars "amplified beyond the threshold of audible pain."
Yum. Zippy the Pinhead asks, "Are we making microtonal music yet?"
[48] "Cartridge Music" by the Coin-Flipping Kook. Doesn't sound like
12. Doesn't sound like much of anything. Again, YMMV.
[49] Indusitral noise-drone music by groups like Decoded Feedback. So
much noise it's hard to tell what tuning it's in. Doesn't sound like
conventional 12 to me, but with this kind of feedback and extreme
noise processing, you'd be hard-pressed to say what tuning it's in.
One thing for sure, this ain't your daddy's Dvoark New World Symphony,
kiddies.
[50] Orchestral timbre-magiicians like Henri Dutilleux or French
electroacoustic composers like Francois Bayle. None of this stuff
sounds particularly 12-like to me, but it doesn't sound
_systematically_ microtonal. Could be I'm just missing something.
[51] Journeys on the Winds of Time by Alan Lamb. This guy put contact
microphones on abandoned telegraph wires strung across the Australian
outback. Doesn't sound like anything I've ever heard, and it's
xenharmonic as hell, but clearly not _systematically_ microtonal.
[52] "Black Lightning" from the cassette "Critters" or the tracks on
"Identity" by Tom Nunn
http://www.edgetonerecords.com/catalog/4047.html
Tom builds his own instruments and his music sounds like nothing else.
Highly xenharmonic...but once again, not _specifically_ microtonal.
Tom Nunn typically doesn't tune his T-rodimbas or the spines of the
Crustacean to a particular definite xenharmonic scale. They just are
what they are.
[53] "Opus Contra Naturam," electroacoustic music by Dan Stearns. This
falls somewhere in between industrial music and tape musique concrete
collage. It's highly xenharmonic, but don't expect to hear, say, 37-
equal triads making a nice IV-V-I chord progression. Dan doesn't have
a lot of patience with the major and minor triad, he's tired of 'em,
and the thinks you should be too, and that's what makes his music so
refreshing and so vibrant and vividly memorable.
On Jan 21, 2:18 pm, Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Post by danstearns
Post by g***@googlemail.com
On 30 Dec 2008, 00:04, Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
At the other extreme, I'm going to try to listen to some of Dan Stearns
and his microtonal mindblowing music. ;-)
I'm still finding my way around the 12-note scale.
To have to abandon that and think in a whole
new musical universe would be..... unthinkable.
--http://www.gillsmith999.plus.com/
In his 2008 article, "Why teaching microtonality from familiar ->
exotic is a bad idea", Brian McLaren makes the case, one I agree with
FWiW, that if if swimming is your goal , you should forgo timidity as
a matter of course and jump in the deep waters…by analogy, something
akin to what McKenna would refer to as a meaningful, committed, or
heroic dose.
Why Teaching Microtonality from Familiar -> Exotic is a Bad Idea
Brian McLaren
March 3, 2008
The entire idea of trying to introduce microtonality to people by
starting with what's familiar and gradually moving by baby steps to
more exotic tunings is a disastrously bad idea. A lot of people have
done this, and it has _always_ worked out badly.
Let me explain why.
[1] People who are interested in learning about microtonality are
generally not shrinking violets. Any folks who sign up for a class on
microtones are usually among the more adventurous musicians in a
group. Easing these folks into microtonality by starting with trite
junk like quartertones will at first frustrate, and soon annoy and
eventually enrage them. These folks want to hear the real deal, music
that sounds radical and striking. They don't want to hear a bunch of 5-
limit diatonic 12-note JI and listen to someone try to tell 'em that's
microtonal -- they know damn well it isn't. That's pissing on peoples'
legs and telling 'em it's raining. They get fed up with that kind of
condescending treatment _fast_.
[2] If you're dealing with a casual listener who just asks "So what's
all that xenharmonic stuff about?" you want to show casual listeners
_right off_ just how awesome and powerful microtonality can be, and
that means you hit 'em with the wild exotic stuff. Many people
mistakenly imagine that the average listener is conservative or
fearful of novelty. In my experience, not so. The average listener is
much more open-minded and much more eager to immerse hi/rself in
radical new sounds than most folks think. What the average listener
does NOT want is jargon and numerology. You start spouting a bunch of
fancy Greek words (diatoniaion and epimore and epimere and comma) and
drawing lotsa geometric diagrams and numbers on a blackboard, and the
average listener's eyes glaze over. They get sick of that crap
_fast_.
So for an average listener, just hit 'em with radical novel microtonal
music. Don't bother to go into details. You don't even have to tell
'em it's non-octave. If they want to know, you can go into details,
but the music's what matters. Shoot, don't even tell 'em it's
microtonal. Just play it for 'em. They'll love it.
[3] The biggest problems with starting with familiar tunings is that
these are by far the least interesting-sounding of all microtonal
tunings. In fact, most of 'em are boring as crap. So there you are,
droning on through this familiar bland stuff, 5-limit diatonic 12-note
JI, 19 equal in the diatonic mode that sounds just about exactly like
12 equal, and everybody is nodding off. People are starting to leave
the freakin' room. They're rolling their eyes. They're whispering to
one another, "THIS is MICROTONAL? Ye gods, this is BORING!"
BAD way to introduce microtonality. Bad, B*A*D*, _BAAAAD_ idea. Half
your group is likely to sidle out of the room before you work your
way, slowly and gradually, by baby steps, up to the point where the
xenharmonic tunings sounds distinctly Unlike conventional music, and
start to sound spicy and vivid and startlingly new.
[4] Starting with familiar-sounding novels unconsciously creates an
"anchor point." And it's a piss-poor anchor point. See Khaneman and
Tversky's Nobel-prize-winning work on the irrationalities of human
judgment -- "anchoring," which they first categorized and quantified,
is one of the most notable examples.
Anchoring occurs when you skew peoples' beliefs by the way you present
information. For example: let's assume you don't know the population
of Turkey (you probably don't) and I ask you "What's the population of
Turkey? 80 million? 120 million? 140 million?" You'll give me an
answer and it's probably going to be around the middle of the choices
I gave you. But if I ask a different group of people "What's the
population of Turkey? 10 million? 20 million? 30 million?" I'll get a
different set of answers, grouped around the middle of the second set
of choices.
The way the information is presented created an "anchor point" which
distorts people's expectations. In the first example, people's answers
will tend to cluster around 120 million, while in the second example
peoples' answers will tend to cluster around 20 million.
The population of Turkey is 71 million, by the way. Notice how we can
distort people's judgment about the size of the Turkish population
just by using this anchoring technique. Political polls do this all
the time, as do product evaluation polls set up by companies that want
to sell a product. It's all a form of psychological manipulation.
Creeps do this today with the post-9/11 hysteria: "Which do you
prefer? Freedom? Or security?" Anyone who's not brain-damaged will
obviously answer security. Freedom doesn't do you much good if you're
dead. But suppose you change the question -- "Which do you prefer?
Having every aspect of your life controlled by the security state? Or
being free?" Guess which answer people give _then_...?
Such is the power of anchoring.
The problem with starting with a familiar set of 12-like tunings and
gradually moving toward unfamiliar tunings that don't sound like 12 is
that you've created an anchor point -- and your anchor is 12. This is
a bad mistake. By the time you're halfway through giving your
introduction to microtonality, your audience will get the idea -- THE
WRONG IDEA: any tuning is good insofar as it is like 12. If doesn't
sound like 12, it's not so good.
This results in the kind of dismal crap you see on sinkholes of
deluded folly like the Alternative Lying List, where all tunings get
judged in a foolish continuum that runs from "very similar to 12 =
good" and "very different from 12 = bad." This naturally leads to
crazy and insanely stupid conclusions, like "all non-octave tunings =
bad."
The musical reality turns out to be just the opposite. The real value
of microtonal tunings involves getting away from what's familiar.
History shows that the most popular microtonal tunings are those which
audibly differ most drastically from 12 equal. 15 equal is extremely
popular, used by Wendy Carlos, Augusto Novaro, Ivor Darreg, Bill
Wesley, Easley Balckwood, myself, and many many others. 15 equal is
popular because it sounds radically and wildly different from 12
equal. You don't get anything like a conventional diatonic scale. You
get major and minor triads, but they sound noticeably different from
the major and minor triads in 12. You don't have a conventional
leading tone. Everything is different. This makes music in 15 equal
sound fresh and lively and vivacious. 15 equal breaks open a smelling
salts capsule under the audience's nose and really wakes 'em up.
By contrast, 19 equal can sound almost identical to 12, and this tends
to bore the audience. "If we wanted to hear 12," their attitude tends
to be, "we would've stayed with 12. Why bother with this?"
Once again, 9 equal sounds radically different from conventional
western music. You hit an audience with 9 equal, and they'll get
excited. But if you have the bad judgment to start the audience out
with the Greek chromatic and diatonic genera, the audience is likely
to snooze off. That stuff sounds almost identical to conventional
western music. The audience fidgets. They shift in their seats. They
start to get antsy. "When are we going to hear the real stuff/" they
start to ask. They get impatient.
Back in the 60s and 70s it used to be chic to play a familiar song
like "Greensleves" in 31 equal and call that "microtonality." Bad bad
bad idea. Ivor Darreg had a better idea -- he used to play visitors 13
equal melodies on a bunch of bronze slats he had set up as tubulongs.
The exotic inharmonic percussive timbre combined with the novel sound
of 13 always perked people up. They got interested. It piqued their
curiosity. They wanted to know more.
Playing "Greensleeves" in 31 equal never worked. 31 equal used to be
touted back in the 60s as some kind of "universal tuning" which,
academics claimed, would be ideal because you could play conventional
western music in it and it would sound almost identical to what we're
familiar with, as well as playing new music.
Well, that didn't fly. No one interested in new music gives a damn
about hearing the same old thing played in the same old way. They want
something NEW. The "old wine in new bottles" is an absolute plague in
cesspools of musical ignorance like the Alternative Lying List, and
you constantly find people wasting their goddamn time playing Fur
Elise in 5-limit diatonic JI. That's crap. It's death. It sounds
lethally boring. No one cares. Jettison that junk. Deep six it. Press
the eject button on that garbage. The way to get people excited about
microtonality is show 'em vividly and audibly, first-hand, just how
different and exciting microtonal tunings can be... And that means
playing radical new
...
read more »- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
DocDosco
2009-01-23 03:54:16 UTC
Permalink
I find that renaissance choral music, just voices, no instruments is
the most wonderful music. I have several hundred CD and LOVE this form
of music. It takes me to another world. I play jazz, but I love
listening to this music above all others forms.

Anything by composers Palestrina, Josquin DesPrez, Victoria, Jacob
Obrecht etc. Most any recordings by the Tallis Scholars or the
Westminister Cathedral Boys Choir.

Here is some Palestrina by by the Westminister Cathedral Choir (and
dig on the children's angelic voices)



Also the Tallis Scholars:







Doc Dosco
http://www.docdosco.com

Doc's Peerless guitar website
http://www.jazzguitarzone.com
Steven Bornfeld
2009-01-23 03:59:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by DocDosco
I find that renaissance choral music, just voices, no instruments is
the most wonderful music. I have several hundred CD and LOVE this form
of music. It takes me to another world. I play jazz, but I love
listening to this music above all others forms.
I agree. The first time I listened to Palestrina masses I found them
almost supernaturally beautiful.
Someone over at rec.music.classical.recordings pointed me to this
website, which is an extensive resource:

http://www.medieval.org/emfaq/

Steve
Post by DocDosco
Anything by composers Palestrina, Josquin DesPrez, Victoria, Jacob
Obrecht etc. Most any recordings by the Tallis Scholars or the
Westminister Cathedral Boys Choir.
Here is some Palestrina by by the Westminister Cathedral Choir (and
dig on the children's angelic voices)
http://youtu.be/OhXCZ29pb9E
http://youtu.be/7Pp0XUU6Rmk
http://youtu.be/y28ZRYF9Q-4
Doc Dosco
http://www.docdosco.com
Doc's Peerless guitar website
http://www.jazzguitarzone.com
DocDosco
2009-01-23 05:24:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steven Bornfeld
I agree. The first time I listened to Palestrina masses I found them
almost supernaturally beautiful.
Someone over at rec.music.classical.recordings pointed me to this
http://www.medieval.org/emfaq/
Steve
Steve,

Thanks for the link.

I have these MP3s converted at 320, so the fidelity is pretty good. I
will leave them up for a little while so folks here can get a taste of
this music if it moves them. If they like this music, there is a lot
of it available on CD they can purchase.

This is a complete Palestrina Mass by the Westminster Catherdral
Chior. The boy sopranos from this particular year are exceptional. And
the interplay of men's high tenor (and altos) with the children's
voices is nothing less than spectacular.

Sure pure angelic voices. It give me chills.

First is the hymn the piece is based on, and then the melody is
harmonized and re-harmonized in 4 and 5 parts through the Kyrie,
Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, Benedictus and Agnus Dei I & II.

All the movements here are hauntingly beautiful. However the Santus is
incredible and the Agnus Dei is to die for. I simply love Latin also.
I guess I have had a bunch of past lives around this kind of music,
because this stuff really captivates me.


Westminster Cathedral Choir - Missa Aeterna Christi Munera

http://www.jazzguitarzone.com/01_Hymn.mp3
http://www.jazzguitarzone.com/02_Kyrie.mp3
http://www.jazzguitarzone.com/03_Gloria.mp3
http://www.jazzguitarzone.com/04_Credo.mp3
http://www.jazzguitarzone.com/05_Sanctus_Benedticus.mp3
http://www.jazzguitarzone.com/06_Agnus_Dei.mp3






Doc Dosco
http://www.docdosco.com

Doc's Peerless guitar website
http://www.jazzguitarzone.com
Steven Bornfeld
2009-01-23 13:41:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by DocDosco
Post by Steven Bornfeld
I agree. The first time I listened to Palestrina masses I found them
almost supernaturally beautiful.
Someone over at rec.music.classical.recordings pointed me to this
http://www.medieval.org/emfaq/
Steve
Steve,
Thanks for the link.
I have these MP3s converted at 320, so the fidelity is pretty good. I
will leave them up for a little while so folks here can get a taste of
this music if it moves them. If they like this music, there is a lot
of it available on CD they can purchase.
This is a complete Palestrina Mass by the Westminster Catherdral
Chior. The boy sopranos from this particular year are exceptional. And
the interplay of men's high tenor (and altos) with the children's
voices is nothing less than spectacular.
Sure pure angelic voices. It give me chills.
First is the hymn the piece is based on, and then the melody is
harmonized and re-harmonized in 4 and 5 parts through the Kyrie,
Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, Benedictus and Agnus Dei I & II.
All the movements here are hauntingly beautiful. However the Santus is
incredible and the Agnus Dei is to die for. I simply love Latin also.
I guess I have had a bunch of past lives around this kind of music,
because this stuff really captivates me.
Westminster Cathedral Choir - Missa Aeterna Christi Munera
http://www.jazzguitarzone.com/01_Hymn.mp3
http://www.jazzguitarzone.com/02_Kyrie.mp3
http://www.jazzguitarzone.com/03_Gloria.mp3
http://www.jazzguitarzone.com/04_Credo.mp3
http://www.jazzguitarzone.com/05_Sanctus_Benedticus.mp3
http://www.jazzguitarzone.com/06_Agnus_Dei.mp3
Doc Dosco
http://www.docdosco.com
Doc's Peerless guitar website
http://www.jazzguitarzone.com
I have this (paired with the Missa Papae Marcelli) on Naxos with the
Oxford Camerata with Jerimy Summerly. Wonderful recording.
Yours might be even better.

Thanks,
Steve
Gerry
2009-01-23 15:46:31 UTC
Permalink
On 2009-01-23 05:41:52 -0800, Steven Bornfeld
Post by Steven Bornfeld
I have this (paired with the Missa Papae Marcelli) on Naxos with the
Oxford Camerata with Jerimy Summerly. Wonderful recording.
Everything I've ever bought on Naxos is a wonderful recording. I don't
know how they do it.
--
Dogmatism kills jazz. Iconoclasm kills rock. Rock dulls scissors.
Mark & Steven Bornfeld
2009-01-23 17:15:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gerry
On 2009-01-23 05:41:52 -0800, Steven Bornfeld
Post by Steven Bornfeld
I have this (paired with the Missa Papae Marcelli) on Naxos with the
Oxford Camerata with Jerimy Summerly. Wonderful recording.
Everything I've ever bought on Naxos is a wonderful recording. I don't
know how they do it.
They are wonderful. You of course know they have a hugh number of
guitar cds in print. The guitar section is produced by Norbert Kraft.
I have no problem with their sound (though I think the wonderful
recordings Robert Barto is doing of Weiss are much too low on volume),
but many others have commented on a very "dry" acoustic, particularly
with their guitar recordings. I hear what they're talking about, but it
doesn't bother me. And the Palestrina certainly isn't "dry".

Steve
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
DocDosco
2009-01-24 01:31:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steven Bornfeld
I have this (paired with the Missa Papae Marcelli) on Naxos with the
Oxford Camerata with Jerimy Summerly. Wonderful recording.
Yours might be even better.
I have that too and dozens of other Naxos CDs Great stuff for $4.99 a
CD. Always well done and nice to collect because of the budget price.

However, there are some exceptional recordings by the Westminster
Cathedral choir of Palestrina and Victoria from various years that are
killer. The lead boy soprano in the early 90s had the most perfect
child's voice I have ever heard, I think.

Some CDs, however, when digital recording quality was in it's infancy,
are not sonically that great. In fact many of the recordings of this
music in general done digitally during the 80s are of poor sonic
quality.

I haven't been actively collecting this music since I jumped back into
jazz in 2000, so there are a lot of new releases I don't have. I have
possibly 500 CDs although I have only converted perhaps 200 or 250 of
the best to MP3. I compulsively bought everything available in
renaissance choral, plain chant, early music, Moyen age etc for about
5 years and spent thousands and thousands of dollars. I admit it was
an addiction, but much healthier than a drug habit.,

Anyway, the recording technology is so much better these days. I see
the Tallis Scholars have several new relaeses of Josquin Desprez and
the Westminster Choir some new Palestrina.

Oh boy, oh boy.

BTW, if you study this music you will see an interesting phenomena.
The melodies and harmonies were much more 'free' and uninhibited
during the mid to late 15th and early 16th century with Okeghem,
Dufay, an later de la Rue, Obrecht and Josquin. Astounding melodic
constructs and harmonies in the early stuff. Like jazz to me.

Then the counter reformation came and the music got more formal and
formula based with Cristobal de Moprales and Palestina, Lassus etc.
However, Palestrina still wrote materpieces within the confines of the
form. Man, did he ever!

Once it got to Victoria in 1600, although still beautiful, it lost all
of the inspired, unusual, unpredictable melodies and interesting
harmonization and became homogenized. It became dumbed down in a way
as time went by.

The English composers, Tallis and Taverner, Tye & Sheppard (The
Western Wynde - simply breathtaking) took a slightly different route,
but by the time of Byrd, this form had lost it's charm, IMO.

About then, along came Monteverdi who started adding instruments to
the voices in the mass setting (beyond simple motets and
madrigals) ... and western classical music as we know it was born.


Doc Dosco
http://www.docdosco.com

Doc's Peerless guitar website
http://www.jazzguitarzone.com
george4908
2009-01-24 02:02:46 UTC
Permalink
One of the modern classical composers whose music I find fascinating
and beautiful is Joseph Schwantner. Some pieces to consider:

Percussion Concerto
Concerto for Percussion and Orchestra
From Afar -- a Fantasy for Guitar and Ochestra
Angelfire -- Fanstasy for Amplified Violin and Orchestra

First time I heard "From Afar" it reminded me of Ralph Towner's work
on "Solstice -- Sound and Shadows." I've always wondered if that
could possibly have had some influence on Schwantner.

The timpani section on "Concerto for Percussion and Orchestra" is
absolutely terrifying.
Steven Bornfeld
2009-01-24 03:58:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by DocDosco
Post by Steven Bornfeld
I have this (paired with the Missa Papae Marcelli) on Naxos with the
Oxford Camerata with Jerimy Summerly. Wonderful recording.
Yours might be even better.
I have that too and dozens of other Naxos CDs Great stuff for $4.99 a
CD. Always well done and nice to collect because of the budget price.
However, there are some exceptional recordings by the Westminster
Cathedral choir of Palestrina and Victoria from various years that are
killer. The lead boy soprano in the early 90s had the most perfect
child's voice I have ever heard, I think.
Some CDs, however, when digital recording quality was in it's infancy,
are not sonically that great. In fact many of the recordings of this
music in general done digitally during the 80s are of poor sonic
quality.
I haven't been actively collecting this music since I jumped back into
jazz in 2000, so there are a lot of new releases I don't have. I have
possibly 500 CDs although I have only converted perhaps 200 or 250 of
the best to MP3. I compulsively bought everything available in
renaissance choral, plain chant, early music, Moyen age etc for about
5 years and spent thousands and thousands of dollars. I admit it was
an addiction, but much healthier than a drug habit.,
Anyway, the recording technology is so much better these days. I see
the Tallis Scholars have several new relaeses of Josquin Desprez and
the Westminster Choir some new Palestrina.
Oh boy, oh boy.
BTW, if you study this music you will see an interesting phenomena.
The melodies and harmonies were much more 'free' and uninhibited
during the mid to late 15th and early 16th century with Okeghem,
Dufay, an later de la Rue, Obrecht and Josquin. Astounding melodic
constructs and harmonies in the early stuff. Like jazz to me.
Then the counter reformation came and the music got more formal and
formula based with Cristobal de Moprales and Palestina, Lassus etc.
However, Palestrina still wrote materpieces within the confines of the
form. Man, did he ever!
Once it got to Victoria in 1600, although still beautiful, it lost all
of the inspired, unusual, unpredictable melodies and interesting
harmonization and became homogenized. It became dumbed down in a way
as time went by.
The English composers, Tallis and Taverner, Tye & Sheppard (The
Western Wynde - simply breathtaking) took a slightly different route,
but by the time of Byrd, this form had lost it's charm, IMO.
About then, along came Monteverdi who started adding instruments to
the voices in the mass setting (beyond simple motets and
madrigals) ... and western classical music as we know it was born.
Doc Dosco
http://www.docdosco.com
Doc's Peerless guitar website
http://www.jazzguitarzone.com
I haven't listened to quite enough early polyphony for long enough to
listen to lines "horizontally" and not "vertically"--something that
Copland pointed out in "What to Listen For in Music". I still have to
buy a pair of 15th century ears. So with my modern ears I still hear
the weird intervals that maybe weren't even intended as such.

Steve
danstearns
2009-01-24 06:44:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by DocDosco
       I have this (paired with the Missa Papae Marcelli) on Naxos with the
Oxford Camerata with Jerimy Summerly.  Wonderful recording.
       Yours might be even better.
I have that too and dozens of other Naxos CDs Great stuff for $4.99 a
CD. Always well done and nice to collect because of the budget price.
However, there are some exceptional recordings by the Westminster
Cathedral choir of Palestrina and Victoria from various years that are
killer. The lead boy soprano in the early 90s had the most perfect
child's voice I have ever heard, I think.
Some CDs, however, when digital recording quality was in it's infancy,
are not sonically that great. In fact many of the recordings of this
music in general done digitally during the 80s are of poor sonic
quality.
I haven't been actively collecting this music since I jumped back into
jazz in 2000, so there are a lot of new releases I don't have. I have
possibly 500 CDs although I have only converted perhaps 200 or 250 of
the best to MP3. I compulsively bought everything available in
renaissance choral, plain chant, early music, Moyen age etc for about
5 years and spent thousands and thousands of dollars. I admit it was
an addiction, but much healthier than a drug habit.,
Anyway, the recording technology is so much better these days. I see
the Tallis Scholars have several new relaeses of Josquin Desprez and
the Westminster Choir some new Palestrina.
Oh boy, oh boy.
BTW, if you study this music you will see an interesting phenomena.
The melodies and harmonies were much more 'free' and uninhibited
during the mid to late 15th and early 16th century with Okeghem,
Dufay, an later de la Rue, Obrecht and Josquin. Astounding melodic
constructs and harmonies in the early stuff. Like jazz to me.
Then the counter reformation came and the music got more formal and
formula based with Cristobal de Moprales and Palestina, Lassus etc.
However, Palestrina still wrote materpieces within the confines of the
form. Man, did he ever!
Once it got to Victoria in 1600, although still beautiful, it lost all
of the inspired, unusual, unpredictable melodies and interesting
harmonization and became homogenized. It became dumbed down in a way
as time went by.
The English composers, Tallis and Taverner, Tye & Sheppard (The
Western Wynde - simply breathtaking) took a slightly different route,
but by the time of Byrd, this form had lost it's charm, IMO.
About then, along came Monteverdi who started adding instruments to
the voices in the mass setting (beyond simple motets and
madrigals) ... and western classical music as we know it was born.
Doc Dosco
http://www.docdosco.com
Doc's Peerless guitar website
http://www.jazzguitarzone.com
        I haven't listened to quite enough early polyphony for long enough to
listen to lines "horizontally" and not "vertically"--something that
Copland pointed out in "What to Listen For in Music".  I still have to
buy a pair of 15th century ears.  So with my modern ears I still hear
the weird intervals that maybe weren't even intended as such.
Steve- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
thanks for the early music links guys, and speaking of "weird
intervals" in this context, i'd like to mention weird intervals
Gesualdo's madrigal or even the later,yet related, Bulgarian folk
choir tradition
DocDosco
2009-01-24 07:39:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by danstearns
thanks for the early music links guys, and speaking of "weird
intervals" in this context, i'd like to mention weird intervals
Gesualdo's madrigal
Ah, yes... Gesualdo...

Carlo Gesualdo, Prince of Venosa.

Carlo Gesualdo, known as Gesualdo da Venosa (March 8, 1566 – September
8, 1613), Prince of Venosa and Count of Conza, was an Italian music
composer, lutenist and nobleman of the late Renaissance. He is famous
for his intensely expressive madrigals, which use a chromatic language
not heard again until the 19th century; and also for committing what
are amongst the most notorious murders in musical history.

The murders

In 1586 Gesualdo married his first cousin, Donna Maria d'Avalos, the
daughter of the Marquis of Pescara. Two years later she began to have
a love affair with Fabrizio Carafa, the Duke of Andria; evidently she
was able to keep it secret from her husband for almost two years, even
though the existence of the affair was well-known elsewhere. Finally,
on October 16, 1590, at the Palazzo San Severo in Naples, when
Gesualdo had allegedly gone away on a hunting trip, the two lovers
took insufficient precaution at last (Gesualdo had arranged with his
servants to have the locks of his palace copied in wood so that he
could gain entrance if it were locked), and he returned to the palace,
caught them in flagrante delicto and murdered them both in their bed;
afterwards he left their mutilated bodies in front of the palace for
all to see. Being a nobleman he was immune to prosecution, but not to
revenge, so he fled to his castle at Gesualdo where he would be safe
from any of the relatives of either his wife or her lover.

Read on:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlo_Gesualdo




Doc Dosco
http://www.docdosco.com

Doc's Peerless guitar website
http://www.jazzguitarzone.com
Steven Bornfeld
2009-01-25 02:16:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by danstearns
thanks for the early music links guys, and speaking of "weird
intervals" in this context, i'd like to mention weird intervals
Gesualdo's madrigal or even the later,yet related, Bulgarian folk
choir tradition
I think some Gesualdo was actually on my list to purchase, but lost the
list. Any recordings you'd recommend?
The Bulgarian folk choir I think I'd have to purchase some headphones
or sleep in the car.

Steve
DocDosco
2009-01-25 04:54:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steven Bornfeld
I think some Gesualdo was actually on my list to purchase, but lost the
list. Any recordings you'd recommend?
I only have 3 CDs. They are all 'interesting'.... haha

Carlo Gesualdo_ Quinto Libro dei Madrigali

Jeremy Summerly; Oxford Camerata Gesualdo_ Sacred Music For 5 Voices

Stravinsky - Mass & Gesualdo - Responsoria




Doc Dosco
http://www.docdosco.com

Doc's Peerless guitar website
http://www.jazzguitarzone.com
Steven Bornfeld
2009-01-25 19:02:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by DocDosco
Post by Steven Bornfeld
I think some Gesualdo was actually on my list to purchase, but lost the
list. Any recordings you'd recommend?
I only have 3 CDs. They are all 'interesting'.... haha
Carlo Gesualdo_ Quinto Libro dei Madrigali
Jeremy Summerly; Oxford Camerata Gesualdo_ Sacred Music For 5 Voices
Stravinsky - Mass & Gesualdo - Responsoria
Doc Dosco
http://www.docdosco.com
Doc's Peerless guitar website
http://www.jazzguitarzone.com
I'll look for them--thanks Doc!

Steve
DocDosco
2009-01-25 23:26:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steven Bornfeld
I'll look for them--thanks Doc!
Here are 2 random Gesualdo madrigals:

http://www.jazzguitarzone.com/03_Itene_o_miei_sospiri.mp3
http://www.jazzguitarzone.com/04_Dolcissima_mia_vita.mp3




Doc Dosco
http://www.docdosco.com

Doc's Peerless guitar website
http://www.jazzguitarzone.com
danstearns
2009-01-26 21:26:53 UTC
Permalink
   I'll look for them--thanks Doc!
http://www.jazzguitarzone.com/03_Itene_o_miei_sospiri.mp3http://www.jazzguitarzone.com/04_Dolcissima_mia_vita.mp3
Doc Doscohttp://www.docdosco.com
Doc's Peerless guitar websitehttp://www.jazzguitarzone.com
thanks doc--->love the chromatic climax to the dolcissima mia vita's
amazingly discords right before the resolve at the end
pmfan57
2009-01-26 22:15:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by danstearns
   I'll look for them--thanks Doc!
http://www.jazzguitarzone.com/03_Itene_o_miei_sospiri.mp3http://www.j...
Doc Doscohttp://www.docdosco.com
Doc's Peerless guitar websitehttp://www.jazzguitarzone.com
thanks doc--->love the chromatic climax to the dolcissima mia vita's
amazingly discords right before the resolve at the end
I have a bunch of LP's of the music of the murderous priest Gesualdo.
A bad man but a great composer. Other worldly stuff.
DocDosco
2009-01-24 08:08:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steven Bornfeld
I haven't listened to quite enough early polyphony for long enough to
listen to lines "horizontally" and not "vertically"--something that
Copland pointed out in "What to Listen For in Music". I still have to
buy a pair of 15th century ears. So with my modern ears I still hear
the weird intervals that maybe weren't even intended as such.
Steve
I was chucked into a boy's choir when I was 8 or 9 and remained there
until 12 or 13. (Saint John's Cathedral Boy's Choir)

I was the lead soloist in my last years there. In fact I made the 'big
time' in my home town as the boy soloist in a lavish production of
Mendelssohn's oratorio Elijah.

So, I got my '15th century ears' when I was quite young.

That is not to say that there are not some odd intervals in some early
music. But, they don't seem strange to me. (except for Gesualdo... he
really WAS tripped out)



Doc Dosco
http://www.docdosco.com

Doc's Peerless guitar website
http://www.jazzguitarzone.com
danstearns
2009-01-24 22:21:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by DocDosco
   I haven't listened to quite enough early polyphony for long enough to
listen to lines "horizontally" and not "vertically"--something that
Copland pointed out in "What to Listen For in Music".  I still have to
buy a pair of 15th century ears.  So with my modern ears I still hear
the weird intervals that maybe weren't even intended as such.
Steve
I was chucked into a boy's choir when I was 8 or 9 and remained there
until 12 or 13. (Saint John's Cathedral Boy's Choir)
I was the lead soloist in my last years there. In fact I made the 'big
time' in my home town as the boy soloist in a lavish production of
Mendelssohn's oratorio Elijah.
So, I got my '15th century ears' when I was quite young.
That is not to say that there are not some odd intervals in some early
music. But, they don't seem strange to me. (except for Gesualdo... he
really WAS tripped out)
Doc Doscohttp://www.docdosco.com
Doc's Peerless guitar websitehttp://www.jazzguitarzone.com
BTW, for anyone who's interested, i've uploaded my favorite Bulgarian
village choir cut here:

https://download.yousendit.com/bVlEaUNLa0RsamZIRGc9PQ

i've heard all the trio bulgarka and all the mysterious voices (even
have a tourist variety kaval and gaida), but this simple little folk
song from a 50's recording ochy ohcy (which seems to be a common
eastern/central European theme about black-eyed gypsies as i've heard
a different version of this same tune/theme sung visiting in Slovakia
as well).but man this one is off the
charts...........microtones....odd tones and shear extaordinary
beauty....wowwowWOW.let the simple village baba mapa kick modern
Mahler ass!!!
Steven Bornfeld
2009-01-25 02:19:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by danstearns
Post by DocDosco
Post by Steven Bornfeld
I haven't listened to quite enough early polyphony for long enough to
listen to lines "horizontally" and not "vertically"--something that
Copland pointed out in "What to Listen For in Music". I still have to
buy a pair of 15th century ears. So with my modern ears I still hear
the weird intervals that maybe weren't even intended as such.
Steve
I was chucked into a boy's choir when I was 8 or 9 and remained there
until 12 or 13. (Saint John's Cathedral Boy's Choir)
I was the lead soloist in my last years there. In fact I made the 'big
time' in my home town as the boy soloist in a lavish production of
Mendelssohn's oratorio Elijah.
So, I got my '15th century ears' when I was quite young.
That is not to say that there are not some odd intervals in some early
music. But, they don't seem strange to me. (except for Gesualdo... he
really WAS tripped out)
Doc Doscohttp://www.docdosco.com
Doc's Peerless guitar websitehttp://www.jazzguitarzone.com
BTW, for anyone who's interested, i've uploaded my favorite Bulgarian
https://download.yousendit.com/bVlEaUNLa0RsamZIRGc9PQ
i've heard all the trio bulgarka and all the mysterious voices (even
have a tourist variety kaval and gaida), but this simple little folk
song from a 50's recording ochy ohcy (which seems to be a common
eastern/central European theme about black-eyed gypsies as i've heard
a different version of this same tune/theme sung visiting in Slovakia
as well).but man this one is off the
charts...........microtones....odd tones and shear extaordinary
beauty....wowwowWOW.let the simple village baba mapa kick modern
Mahler ass!!!
Thanks for the upload--I'll listen to it a bit later.
You catch the throat singers from Tuva? I remember maybe 30 years ago
being intrigued enough from an article in the Village Voice to go listen
to a French singer named (I believe) Tamia, who used some of the same
vocal techniques as the Tuvan singers. I think I'd have to build up in
small doses. ;-)

Steve
danstearns
2009-01-26 23:13:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steven Bornfeld
Post by danstearns
Post by DocDosco
   I haven't listened to quite enough early polyphony for long enough to
listen to lines "horizontally" and not "vertically"--something that
Copland pointed out in "What to Listen For in Music".  I still have to
buy a pair of 15th century ears.  So with my modern ears I still hear
the weird intervals that maybe weren't even intended as such.
Steve
I was chucked into a boy's choir when I was 8 or 9 and remained there
until 12 or 13. (Saint John's Cathedral Boy's Choir)
I was the lead soloist in my last years there. In fact I made the 'big
time' in my home town as the boy soloist in a lavish production of
Mendelssohn's oratorio Elijah.
So, I got my '15th century ears' when I was quite young.
That is not to say that there are not some odd intervals in some early
music. But, they don't seem strange to me. (except for Gesualdo... he
really WAS tripped out)
Doc Doscohttp://www.docdosco.com
Doc's Peerless guitar websitehttp://www.jazzguitarzone.com
BTW, for anyone who's interested, i've uploaded my favorite Bulgarian
https://download.yousendit.com/bVlEaUNLa0RsamZIRGc9PQ
i've heard all the trio bulgarka and all the mysterious voices (even
have a tourist variety kaval and gaida), but this simple little folk
song from a 50's recording ochy ohcy (which seems to be a common
eastern/central European theme about black-eyed gypsies as i've heard
a different version of this same tune/theme sung visiting in Slovakia
as well).but man this one is off the
charts...........microtones....odd tones and shear extaordinary
beauty....wowwowWOW.let the simple village baba mapa kick modern
Mahler ass!!!
Thanks for the upload--I'll listen to it a bit later.
        You catch the throat singers from Tuva?  I remember maybe 30 years ago
being intrigued enough from an article in the Village Voice to go listen
to a French singer named (I believe) Tamia, who used some of the same
vocal techniques as the Tuvan singers.  I think I'd have to build up in
small doses.  ;-)
Steve- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
oh yes,in fact (believe-it-or-not) when my son Bryan was maybe 6 or 7
he wanted to be Kaagal-ool of Huun-Huur-Tu for Halloween!
He called them "the singing horsemen", and we used to play that
together out on hikes and whatnot (no joke).
FWiW, he ended up being the Incredible Hulk that year (before any of
the modern movies) and it was funny how many people remembered him
from the 70's TV series.........now if there'd only been a Tuvan
Throat Singing Tv series! anyway, i guess we'll have to settle for
masaharu morimoto from the original japan Iron chef (that was his
halloween costume either the next year or the year after) ,and nobody
knew who he was-------->are you a samurai?
Mark & Steven Bornfeld
2009-01-26 23:45:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by danstearns
oh yes,in fact (believe-it-or-not) when my son Bryan was maybe 6 or 7
he wanted to be Kaagal-ool of Huun-Huur-Tu for Halloween!
He called them "the singing horsemen", and we used to play that
together out on hikes and whatnot (no joke).
FWiW, he ended up being the Incredible Hulk that year (before any of
the modern movies) and it was funny how many people remembered him
from the 70's TV series.........now if there'd only been a Tuvan
Throat Singing Tv series! anyway, i guess we'll have to settle for
masaharu morimoto from the original japan Iron chef (that was his
halloween costume either the next year or the year after) ,and nobody
knew who he was-------->are you a samurai?
That's funny. Incidentally, Lou Ferrigno was in my high school
graduating class (Brooklyn Tech '69).
I remember seeing a television program years ago about the physicist
Richard Feynman. One of his great ambitions near the end of his life
was to visit Tuva. I think he did make it.

Steve
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
Mark & Steven Bornfeld
2009-01-26 23:47:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
That's funny. Incidentally, Lou Ferrigno was in my high school
graduating class (Brooklyn Tech '69).
I remember seeing a television program years ago about the physicist
Richard Feynman. One of his great ambitions near the end of his life
was to visit Tuva. I think he did make it.
Steve
I just noticed that there is a link to "Friends of Tuva" on a website
devoted to Feynman:

http://www.feynmanonline.com/

Steve
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
Steven Bornfeld
2009-01-25 19:08:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by danstearns
BTW, for anyone who's interested, i've uploaded my favorite Bulgarian
https://download.yousendit.com/bVlEaUNLa0RsamZIRGc9PQ
This is truly beautiful--thanks Dan!

Steve
Post by danstearns
i've heard all the trio bulgarka and all the mysterious voices (even
have a tourist variety kaval and gaida), but this simple little folk
song from a 50's recording ochy ohcy (which seems to be a common
eastern/central European theme about black-eyed gypsies as i've heard
a different version of this same tune/theme sung visiting in Slovakia
as well).but man this one is off the
charts...........microtones....odd tones and shear extaordinary
beauty....wowwowWOW.let the simple village baba mapa kick modern
Mahler ass!!!
danstearns
2009-01-26 21:28:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by danstearns
BTW, for anyone who's interested, i've uploaded my favorite Bulgarian
https://download.yousendit.com/bVlEaUNLa0RsamZIRGc9PQ
        This is truly beautiful--thanks Dan!
Steve
Post by danstearns
i've heard all the trio bulgarka and all the mysterious voices (even
have a tourist variety kaval and gaida), but this simple little folk
song from a 50's recording ochy ohcy (which seems to be a common
eastern/central European theme about black-eyed gypsies as i've heard
a different version of this same tune/theme sung visiting in Slovakia
as well).but man this one is off the
charts...........microtones....odd tones and shear extaordinary
beauty....wowwowWOW.let the simple village baba mapa kick modern
Mahler ass!!!- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
yeah, i agree.this one's given me watery eyes and goosebumps more than
once
danstearns
2009-01-26 23:02:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by danstearns
Post by danstearns
BTW, for anyone who's interested, i've uploaded my favorite Bulgarian
https://download.yousendit.com/bVlEaUNLa0RsamZIRGc9PQ
        This is truly beautiful--thanks Dan!
Steve
Post by danstearns
i've heard all the trio bulgarka and all the mysterious voices (even
have a tourist variety kaval and gaida), but this simple little folk
song from a 50's recording ochy ohcy (which seems to be a common
eastern/central European theme about black-eyed gypsies as i've heard
a different version of this same tune/theme sung visiting in Slovakia
as well).but man this one is off the
charts...........microtones....odd tones and shear extaordinary
beauty....wowwowWOW.let the simple village baba mapa kick modern
Mahler ass!!!- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
yeah, i agree.this one's given me watery eyes and goosebumps more than
once- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
bTW, the first time i heard this, and the low voice came in at about
the 42 second mark, i actually just about fell out of my seat......i
thought it was a bassoon playing some bizarre ascending chromatic
line!
Greger Hoel
2009-02-27 21:57:12 UTC
Permalink
På Sat, 24 Jan 2009 23:21:43 +0100, skrev danstearns
Post by danstearns
BTW, for anyone who's interested, i've uploaded my favorite Bulgarian
https://download.yousendit.com/bVlEaUNLa0RsamZIRGc9PQ
i've heard all the trio bulgarka and all the mysterious voices (even
have a tourist variety kaval and gaida), but this simple little folk
song from a 50's recording ochy ohcy (which seems to be a common
eastern/central European theme about black-eyed gypsies as i've heard
a different version of this same tune/theme sung visiting in Slovakia
as well).but man this one is off the
charts...........microtones....odd tones and shear extaordinary
beauty....wowwowWOW.let the simple village baba mapa kick modern
Mahler ass!!!
I realise I'm about a month late here, but I'd love to hear it. Could you
re-up it for me? Pretty please?
--
Sendt med Operas revolusjonerende e-postprogram: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Greger Hoel
2009-02-27 19:41:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by DocDosco
I have these MP3s converted at 320, so the fidelity is pretty good. I
will leave them up for a little while so folks here can get a taste of
this music if it moves them. If they like this music, there is a lot
of it available on CD they can purchase.
This is a complete Palestrina Mass by the Westminster Catherdral
Chior. The boy sopranos from this particular year are exceptional. And
the interplay of men's high tenor (and altos) with the children's
voices is nothing less than spectacular.
Sure pure angelic voices. It give me chills.
First is the hymn the piece is based on, and then the melody is
harmonized and re-harmonized in 4 and 5 parts through the Kyrie,
Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, Benedictus and Agnus Dei I & II.
All the movements here are hauntingly beautiful. However the Santus is
incredible and the Agnus Dei is to die for. I simply love Latin also.
I guess I have had a bunch of past lives around this kind of music,
because this stuff really captivates me.
Westminster Cathedral Choir - Missa Aeterna Christi Munera
http://www.jazzguitarzone.com/01_Hymn.mp3
http://www.jazzguitarzone.com/02_Kyrie.mp3
http://www.jazzguitarzone.com/03_Gloria.mp3
http://www.jazzguitarzone.com/04_Credo.mp3
http://www.jazzguitarzone.com/05_Sanctus_Benedticus.mp3
http://www.jazzguitarzone.com/06_Agnus_Dei.mp3
Great stuff, man. Thanks!
--
Sendt med Operas revolusjonerende e-postprogram: http://www.opera.com/mail/
RTFirefly
2009-02-27 19:59:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Greger Hoel
Post by DocDosco
I have these MP3s converted at 320, so the fidelity is pretty good. I
will leave them up for a little while so folks here can get a taste of
this music if it moves them. If they like this music, there is a lot
of it available on CD they can purchase.
This is a complete Palestrina Mass by the Westminster Catherdral
Chior. The boy sopranos from this particular year are exceptional. And
the interplay of men's high tenor (and  altos) with the children's
voices is nothing less than spectacular.
Sure pure angelic voices. It give me chills.
First is the hymn the piece is based on, and then the melody is
harmonized and re-harmonized in 4 and 5 parts through the Kyrie,
Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, Benedictus and Agnus Dei I & II.
All the movements here are hauntingly beautiful. However the Santus is
incredible and the Agnus Dei is to die for. I simply love Latin also.
I guess I have had a bunch of past lives around this kind of music,
because this stuff really captivates me.
Westminster Cathedral Choir - Missa Aeterna Christi Munera
http://www.jazzguitarzone.com/01_Hymn.mp3
http://www.jazzguitarzone.com/02_Kyrie.mp3
http://www.jazzguitarzone.com/03_Gloria.mp3
http://www.jazzguitarzone.com/04_Credo.mp3
http://www.jazzguitarzone.com/05_Sanctus_Benedticus.mp3
http://www.jazzguitarzone.com/06_Agnus_Dei.mp3
Great stuff, man. Thanks!
--
Sendt med Operas revolusjonerende e-postprogram:http://www.opera.com/mail/- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Just picked this thread up. If nothing else everyone who loves music
should listen at least once (live if possible, if not the best
recorded version I know features Emma Kirby) to Pergolesi's Stabat
Mater. Sorry if this has already been mentioned.
t***@gmail.com
2008-12-30 00:18:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul
hey all,
i'm trying to expand my horizons a little more. i've been listening to
jazz almost exclusively for a while, but hearing stuff like mehldau's
elegiac cycle, rosenwinkel's heartcore, aaron parks' invisible cinema,
etc. i see all this stuff about how they're influenced by all kinds of
music, and i want my music to be influenced by all music as well;
so i'm looking for suggestions from you guys of some stuff i should
check out for different genres, like classical, electronic/
alternative, hip hop. as far as the alternative and hip hop stuff
goes, i'm hoping to find something a little more musical/artistic than
a lot of the stuff i've heard...and for classical i don't even know
where to begin. i like debussy's doctor gradus and clair de lune. i've
read mehldauh mentioning brahms and rosenwinkel mentioning shoenberg
somewhere, but i don't know anything about them.
thanks a lot
Outside of classical, blues and bossa nova, I would go for silence
(also reading about non-music subjects; checking out museums) and
meditating. There is more to this thing. Can you dig it?

-TD
Johnny Asia
2008-12-30 15:35:08 UTC
Permalink
<***@gmail.com> wrote in message news:b153d0d1-e4c9-
Outside of classical, blues and bossa nova, I would go for silence
(also reading about non-music subjects; checking out museums) and
meditating. There is more to this thing. Can you dig it?

-TD


Great suggestion! I'd add: listening to the wind blowing in the forest,
get into the rhythms of the NY subway, and the sound of one hand clapping.
--
+

Johnny Asia

http://music.download.com/johnnyasia

http://johnnyasia.net
Gerry
2008-12-30 00:43:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul
so i'm looking for suggestions from you guys of some stuff i should
check out for different genres, like classical, electronic/
alternative, hip hop. as far as the alternative and hip hop stuff
goes, i'm hoping to find something a little more musical/artistic than
a lot of the stuff i've heard...and for classical i don't even know
where to begin. i like debussy's doctor gradus and clair de lune. i've
read mehldauh mentioning brahms and rosenwinkel mentioning shoenberg
somewhere, but i don't know anything about them.
If you like Debussy, pursue him. For big symphonic stuff I love
Russians: Shostakovich, Prokofiev, Stravinsky, Tchaikovsky as well as
Brahms and a bunch of other romantic lit. But then I haven't pursued it
as I might have, and not for a good long while. If you want to explore
classical music I'd suggest getting a book or two; even the "Idiot's
Guide" stuff will do for starters. Read about it and you might find
some enclaves that appeal most, listen, and can see who belongs to what
school and so forth. The Metropolitan Opera is offering a HiDef
version in movie theatres, so ever couple of weeks I go see an opear.
That's been fun and educational as well.

While exploring classical music years ago I preferred quartets and
quintets, small ensembles that have enough exposed voices for me to
really be able to track how the music moves. It doesn't always so so
much for orchestration, but let's you more readily understand it's
structure. Also scores for this stuff can be found in good university
libraries if there are any near you. Frequently they will let
non-students get a card or do inter-librarly loans with a local public
library.

I can't speak to the electronic/alternative and hip hop stuff.

Most of my listening isn't jazz. It generally changes from quarter to
quarter. Right now I am listening to a lot of historic French popular
music from the late 20's on. And a lot of French Musette. Over most
of the spring and summer I was locked onto Japanese pop music from the
30's through early 60's. For the past 20 years I've spent a certain
period of my time listening to Cuban and Newyorican/Salsa music.
That's a foverver kind of exploration with myriad styles and
personalities.

For sheer volume I've listened to more Brazilian music that most other
stuff. Another endless pursuit. I also have smaller stacks of Arab,
Chinese and Indian musics. I love all this stuff. Much of is so very
different from the way we put things together in the USA that it makes
you very conscious of alot of fundamental things rather than simply a
"melody" or a "chord progression". All of this is categorized "world
music", though what it really means is "rest of the world" music.

I could make a lot of suggestions for this kind of stuff but don't want
to clog the discussion with noise that will go unheard. If you have any
interest in this stuff let me know and I'll give you some places to
start. One good one is the "All Music Guide to World Music". I would
recommend that one for exploring classical music as well. No, you
won't hear anything with a book, but it will work as a map to the
neighborhood.

Have fun!
--
Dogmatism kills jazz. Iconoclasm kills rock. Rock dulls scissors.
icarusi
2008-12-30 01:30:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul
i like debussy's doctor gradus and clair de lune. i've
read mehldauh mentioning brahms and rosenwinkel mentioning shoenberg
somewhere, but i don't know anything about them.
Eric Satie, Ralph Vaughan Williams, Fredrick Delius and Arnold Bax are worth
checking out if you like Debussy. Their private lives are interesting too.

icarusi
--

remove the 00 to reply
c***@claymoore.com
2008-12-30 02:33:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul
hey all,
i'm trying to expand my horizons a little more. i've been listening to
jazz almost exclusively for a while, but hearing stuff like mehldau's
elegiac cycle, rosenwinkel's heartcore, aaron parks' invisible cinema,
etc. i see all this stuff about how they're influenced by all kinds of
music, and i want my music to be influenced by all music as well;
so i'm looking for suggestions from you guys of some stuff i should
check out for different genres, like classical, electronic/
alternative, hip hop. as far as the alternative and hip hop stuff
goes, i'm hoping to find something a little more musical/artistic than
a lot of the stuff i've heard...and for classical i don't even know
where to begin. i like debussy's doctor gradus and clair de lune. i've
read mehldauh mentioning brahms and rosenwinkel mentioning shoenberg
somewhere, but i don't know anything about them.
thanks a lot
BTW, are you familiar with the Meters? If not it's another very cool
direction to explore, New Orleans mostly instrumental funk. King Sunny
Adé from Nigeria? Eclectic country music artist Marty Stuart's "The
Pilgrim."

Clay Moore
danstearns
2009-01-10 00:35:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul
hey all,
i'm trying to expand my horizons a little more. i've been listening to
jazz almost exclusively for a while, but hearing stuff like mehldau's
elegiac cycle, rosenwinkel's heartcore, aaron parks' invisible cinema,
etc. i see all this stuff about how they're influenced by all kinds of
music, and i want my music to be influenced by all music as well;
so i'm looking for suggestions from you guys of some stuff i should
check out for different genres, like classical, electronic/
alternative, hip hop. as far as the alternative and hip hop stuff
goes, i'm hoping to find something a little more musical/artistic than
a lot of the stuff i've heard...and for classical i don't even know
where to begin. i like debussy's doctor gradus and clair de lune. i've
read mehldauh mentioning brahms and rosenwinkel mentioning shoenberg
somewhere, but i don't know anything about them.
thanks a lot
Not really answering your post (as there‘s a lot of jazz here), but
these are at least a few recent and past listenings that you might or
might not have heard of ,and might perhaps seem interesting :

Prime Time--Virgin Beauty
I love Ornette and I love the idea of Prime Time,but they never seemed
to translate to record very well and I always liked Blood Ulmer's
Captain Black better than any PT. But this is the solid Prime Time
recording I'd always hoped for,very very nice.

John McLaughlin--My Goals Beyond
My second favorite McLaughlin after Extrapolation. I hadn't heard this
in years until I recently got this CD reissue, but it was so ingrained
in my consciousness that I thought one of the pieces was one of mine!

Henry Threadgill--Easily Slip Into Another World
How a jazz composer like Wynton Marsalis can win a Pulitzer and be a
household name when there's a nearly unknown Henry Threadgill out
there doing his thing I'll never understand. Another World is my
favorite of the sextet records with just one masterful,memorable tune
following another.

Irakere--Yemaya
Not a great record IMO,but Chucho is always unbelievable and this
recording has some amazing, jaw-dropping moments at the keyboard.

Bungle, California------->best beach boy’s record the beach boys never
made…wow, what a rock record.All the hopped up genre hopping you’d
expect with the a prime Bungle/SC’s mix of bollywood, Zorn cinematic
swipes and every other cool and geeky bell and whistle known to its
makers and reviewers, plus a really reverent tip of the acid bowl to
classic late BB’s blue-eyed soul and fun but longing Wilsonian
experimentation. What kind of sets this record apart from most great
Patton projects is some really great tunes, something that tempers all
the facile wackiness, and Retrovertigo, Vanity Fair, Sweet Charity and
The Air-Conditioned Nightmare are all perfect pop for me. Big fun, and
huge massive big good

Alec K. Redfearn and the Eyesores,The Quiet Room---------->Alec is
kind of a local guy, being from Rhode Island, and over the years I’ve
played on the same bill with a bunch of his different bands (did a
whole mini-tour with the Spaceheaters, and they were ALWAYS great.
This record is no exception. If Univers Zero fronted by a folk-country
singer /accordion player sounds interesting, well this is that but a
whole lot better too.check it...........

Iva Bittova--Ne,Nehledej
great record by a truly original and under-appreciated Czech.

Kaki King, Everybody loves You------->what I love most about kaki is
that she took Hedges’ most tappy bits and based a whole very sturdy,
integrated approach around it that’s utterly un-guitaristic in the
traditional sense, but so clear in its approach and execution that up-
and-coming guitarists don’t just cop her licks and stylistic
tendencies (as they did Hedges ad infinitum) ,but they actually play
her tunes replete with a physicality/technique and overall approach no
guitarist of the distant past would’ve ever even possibly imagined or
dreamed--well,save roy smeck perhaps. Anyway, I’ll never forget the
first time I heard Kewpie Station start playing...........I said okay
the bass and the drums are pretty cool,but where’s the guitar?
doooooooooooooooooh!

Waking Vision Trio--The Ancient Bloom
While it bugs me how much they crib Bright Size Life, BSL is still my
favorite Metheny,and nobody dug in on that sound better than these
guys on this recording.

Lane,Hellborg and Sipe--Malmo, Sweden 11/15/96
Lane at his most terrifyingly over-the-top, and many of the jams and
tunes that appear in fragments on their other recordings have a
nice,dark almost ECM vibe here.

Chico Hamilton--The Dealer
Coryell absolutely nailing the paradigm shift in what trad jazz guitar
could mean if you grew up listening to rock 'n' roll. Few followed his
lead and no one did it better than this recording IMO.

Gabor Szabo,Spellbinder—fun mid-60’s Impulse recording with plenty of
Szabo’s super-exotic funky, amplified acoustic and featuring the great
rhythm section of Chico Hamilton and Ron Carter .

Stefan Grossman and John Renbourn, Under the Volcano—cool , non
standardized folk fusion (in the best sense of that term, whatever it
might mean) super duo with plenty o’ resonant Martins et al and cool
electric fuzz guitar as only a dyed-in the-wool folk guitarists could
dare to do .

Beethoven, Sonata 29 Op.106—The late string quartets get a lot of
attention fort their surprising moderninity, but this piece is my fave
Beethoven “jeeez,what year was that composed?” piece. Fwiw,this
recording was recorded on 35/mm magnetic film (!) with pianist Daniel
Barenboim.

William Akerman,Turtle’s Navel—only Akerman I ever heard that I truly
liked.raw.

Alex de Grassi, Slow Circle—hmm, okay, the only de Grassi I ever heard
that I truly liked too.Poised and very beautiful. Btw, I got to open
for him once, and man was it scary playing solo acoustic for Windham
Hillers!

Howard Roberts, Antelope Freeway/Equinox Express Elevator—Roberts’ two
great “serious studio guys smoking pot and going mad” recordings,Big
fun.

Villa-Lobos, Suite Populaire Bresilienne—great version of a great
piece taken here by Julian Bream . I’ve always loved the preludes but
I never really cared so much for the Twelve Etudes (the other half of
this recording).

John Abercrombie and Ralph Towner, Saragossa Sea—did a workshop with
these guys when they were touring this recording, and it was great.
Love both of them, and this recording especially, but Towner is really
a notch above as far as a true original goes, IMO.

Arthur Blythe, Elaborations—one of the really great, underrated 80’s
jazz bands… happening tunes, great ,individualistic players, cool
instrumentation and (for us guitar guys) the little discussed Kelvyn
Bell at his mainstream meets avant best.

Guitar Workshop, Vol 2—bunch of good players, but who the hell cares
about good players (not me). This one’s really notable though, IMO,
for two cuts from one the missing links of modern instrumental rock
guitar, Peter Banks.

Kazumi Watanabe, Infinite—Watanabe did a lot of great stuff with Mobo
Club and others, but this 1971’ acid-soaked fusion debut recorded at
the precocious age of 17 is my fave of his.

Charlie Haden, The Ballad of the Fallen—beautiful, moving
compositionally-oriented ECM large ensemble….the A side being a fave
dinner record of the Stearns’ family, and like Rzewski's famous
variations, it's intelligently and reverently based on el pueblo unido
jamás sera vencido (the people united will never be defeated).

Larry Coryell and Philip Catherine, Splendid/Twin House—Coryell takes
a lot of slack for his massively uneven oeuvre, but I think this duo
really brought out some of his best attributes in the all-acoustic
realm of his endeavors.

Terje Rypdal, After the Rain—I consider Rypdal special not because
he’s always so, but because when he is (as he soooo is on this mid
70’s recording, even on acoustic) he’s really something…like the jeff
beck of jazz, something outside chops to send chills uP/ down the
spine.

Ronald Shannon Jackson and the Decoding Society, Barbeque Dog—saw
these guys live three times, and man were they goooooooooooood…. Once
the two-bass combo of Jackson and Gibbs and Vernon Ried’s les paul was
onboard, Jackson’s pumped up Prime Time meets Mingus/Ellington
compositional/orchestrational pieces peaked big time.One of the BEST
80s units ever.

Art Bears, The World as it is Today—Okay, I’ll be blunt, Art Bears
blew my mind and reset my imagination’s imaginary compass. This
recording, their last not surprisingly, kind of pushed their ultra-art
oriented Brecht and Eisler meeting of Cutler’s texts and Frith’s multi-
instrumental compositions (and Dagmar’s Dagmar) to its natural
conclusion….baabooom! brilliant beyond words to my mind, and what I
would call a type of high-water standard all arts should try to aspire
towards….there’s more creativity and ideas packed into almost any one
of these songs than there are some greatly respected, established
artist’s whole oeuvres in my personal opinion.
danstearns
2009-01-14 23:16:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by danstearns
Post by Paul
hey all,
i'm trying to expand my horizons a little more. i've been listening to
jazz almost exclusively for a while, but hearing stuff like mehldau's
elegiac cycle, rosenwinkel's heartcore, aaron parks' invisible cinema,
etc. i see all this stuff about how they're influenced by all kinds of
music, and i want my music to be influenced by all music as well;
so i'm looking for suggestions from you guys of some stuff i should
check out for different genres, like classical, electronic/
alternative, hip hop. as far as the alternative and hip hop stuff
goes, i'm hoping to find something a little more musical/artistic than
a lot of the stuff i've heard...and for classical i don't even know
where to begin. i like debussy's doctor gradus and clair de lune. i've
read mehldauh mentioning brahms and rosenwinkel mentioning shoenberg
somewhere, but i don't know anything about them.
thanks a lot
Not really answering your post (as there‘s a lot of jazz here), but
these are at least a few recent and past listenings that you might or
Prime Time--Virgin Beauty
I love Ornette and I love the idea of Prime Time,but they never seemed
to translate to record very well and I always liked Blood Ulmer's
Captain Black better than any PT. But this is the solid Prime Time
recording I'd always hoped for,very very nice.
John McLaughlin--My Goals Beyond
My second favorite McLaughlin after Extrapolation. I hadn't heard this
in years until I recently got this CD reissue, but it was so ingrained
in my consciousness that I thought one of the pieces was one of mine!
Henry Threadgill--Easily Slip Into Another World
How a jazz composer like Wynton Marsalis can win a Pulitzer and be a
household name when there's a nearly unknown Henry Threadgill out
there doing his thing I'll never understand. Another World is my
favorite of the sextet records with just one masterful,memorable tune
following another.
Irakere--Yemaya
Not a great record IMO,but Chucho is always unbelievable and this
recording has some amazing, jaw-dropping moments at the keyboard.
Bungle, California------->best beach boy’s record the beach boys never
made…wow, what a rock record.All the hopped up genre hopping you’d
expect with the a prime Bungle/SC’s mix of bollywood, Zorn cinematic
swipes and every other cool and geeky bell and whistle known to its
makers and reviewers, plus a really reverent tip of the acid bowl to
classic late BB’s blue-eyed soul and fun but longing Wilsonian
experimentation. What kind of sets this record apart from most great
Patton projects is some really great tunes, something that tempers all
the facile wackiness, and Retrovertigo, Vanity Fair, Sweet Charity and
The Air-Conditioned Nightmare are all perfect pop for me. Big fun, and
huge massive big good
Alec K. Redfearn and the Eyesores,The Quiet Room---------->Alec is
kind of a local guy, being from Rhode Island, and over the years I’ve
played on the same bill with a bunch of his different bands (did a
whole mini-tour with the Spaceheaters, and they were ALWAYS great.
This record is no exception. If Univers Zero fronted by a folk-country
singer /accordion player sounds interesting, well this is that but a
whole lot better too.check it...........
Iva Bittova--Ne,Nehledej
great record by a truly original and under-appreciated Czech.
Kaki King, Everybody loves You------->what I love most about kaki is
that she took Hedges’ most tappy bits and based a whole very sturdy,
integrated approach around it that’s utterly un-guitaristic in the
traditional sense, but so clear in its approach and execution that up-
and-coming guitarists don’t just cop her licks and stylistic
tendencies (as they did Hedges ad infinitum) ,but they actually play
her tunes replete with a physicality/technique and overall approach no
guitarist of the distant past would’ve ever even possibly imagined or
dreamed--well,save roy smeck perhaps. Anyway, I’ll never forget the
first time I heard Kewpie Station start playing...........I said okay
the bass and the drums are pretty cool,but where’s the guitar?
doooooooooooooooooh!
Waking Vision Trio--The Ancient Bloom
While it bugs me how much they crib Bright Size Life, BSL is still my
favorite Metheny,and nobody dug in on that sound better than these
guys on this recording.
Lane,Hellborg and Sipe--Malmo, Sweden 11/15/96
Lane at his most terrifyingly over-the-top, and many of the jams and
tunes that appear in fragments on their other recordings have a
nice,dark almost ECM vibe here.
Chico Hamilton--The Dealer
Coryell absolutely nailing the paradigm shift in what trad jazz guitar
could mean if you grew up listening to rock 'n' roll. Few followed his
lead and no one did it better than this recording IMO.
Gabor Szabo,Spellbinder—fun mid-60’s Impulse recording with plenty of
Szabo’s super-exotic funky, amplified acoustic and featuring the great
rhythm section of Chico Hamilton and Ron Carter .
Stefan Grossman and John Renbourn, Under the Volcano—cool , non
standardized folk fusion (in the best sense of that term, whatever it
might mean) super duo with plenty o’ resonant Martins et al and cool
electric fuzz guitar as only a dyed-in the-wool folk guitarists could
dare to do .
Beethoven, Sonata 29 Op.106—The late string quartets get a lot of
attention fort their surprising moderninity, but this piece is my fave
Beethoven “jeeez,what year was that composed?” piece. Fwiw,this
recording was recorded on 35/mm magnetic film (!) with pianist Daniel
Barenboim.
William Akerman,Turtle’s Navel—only Akerman I ever heard that I truly
liked.raw.
Alex de Grassi, Slow Circle—hmm, okay, the only de Grassi I ever heard
that I truly liked too.Poised and very beautiful. Btw, I got to open
for him once, and man was it scary playing solo acoustic for Windham
Hillers!
Howard Roberts, Antelope Freeway/Equinox Express Elevator—Roberts’ two
great “serious studio guys smoking pot and going mad” recordings,Big
fun.
Villa-Lobos, Suite Populaire Bresilienne—great version of a great
piece taken here by Julian Bream . I’ve always loved the preludes but
I never really cared so much for the Twelve Etudes (the other half of
this recording).
John Abercrombie and Ralph Towner, Saragossa Sea—did a workshop with
these guys when they were touring this recording, and it was great.
Love both of them, and this recording especially, but Towner is really
a notch above as far as a true original goes, IMO.
Arthur Blythe, Elaborations—one of the really great, underrated 80’s
jazz bands… happening tunes, great ,individualistic players, cool
instrumentation and (for us guitar guys) the little discussed Kelvyn
Bell at his mainstream meets avant best.
Guitar Workshop, Vol 2—bunch of good players, but who the hell cares
about good players (not me). This one’s really notable though, IMO,
for two cuts from one the missing links of modern instrumental rock
guitar, Peter Banks.
Kazumi Watanabe, Infinite—Watanabe did a lot of great stuff with Mobo
Club and others, but this 1971’ acid-soaked fusion debut recorded at
the precocious age of 17 is my fave of his.
Charlie Haden, The Ballad of the Fallen—beautiful, moving
compositionally-oriented ECM large ensemble….the A side being a fave
dinner record of theStearns’ family, and like Rzewski's famous
variations, it's intelligently and reverently based on el pueblo unido
jamás sera vencido (the people united will never be defeated).
Larry Coryell and Philip Catherine, Splendid/Twin House—Coryell takes
a lot of slack for his massively uneven oeuvre, but I think this duo
really brought out some of his best attributes in the all-acoustic
realm of his endeavors.
Terje Rypdal, After the Rain—I consider Rypdal special not because
he’s always so, but because when he is (as he soooo is on this mid
70’s recording, even on acoustic) he’s really something…like the jeff
beck of jazz, something outside chops to send chills uP/ down the
spine.
Ronald Shannon Jackson and the Decoding Society, Barbeque Dog—saw
these guys live three times, and man were they goooooooooooood…. Once
the two-bass combo of Jackson and Gibbs and Vernon Ried’s les paul was
onboard, Jackson’s pumped up Prime Time meets Mingus/Ellington
compositional/orchestrational pieces peaked big time.One of the BEST
80s units ever.
Art Bears, The World as it is Today—Okay, I’ll be blunt, Art Bears
blew my mind and reset my imagination’s imaginary compass. This
recording, their last not surprisingly, kind of pushed their ultra-art
oriented Brecht and Eisler meeting of Cutler’s texts and Frith’s multi-
instrumental compositions (and Dagmar’s Dagmar) to its natural
conclusion….baabooom! brilliant beyond words to my mind, and what I
would call a type of high-water standard all arts should try to aspire
towards….there’s more creativity and ideas packed into almost any one
of these songs than there are some greatly respected, established
artist’s whole oeuvres in my personal opinion.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Also there’s the instrumental metal cutting edge (i know,shudder the
thought) which is probably no better represented than by Colin
Marston's many bands--try Behold the Arctopus or Dysrhythmia for
starters. If you like your guitars, yes i know, Marston plays bass,
but who cares, and besides with the Warr "guitar" who the hell can
tell half the time what it is! /anyway, what i was saying is that if
you like your guitar music loud, dissonant and complex, you're not
going to find it any better than you're going to get it with CM's
incredibly beautifully brutal compositions...i mean both Behold the
Arctopus and Dysrhythmia make King Crimson at their most extreme sound
like a lounge band! And for what's still squarely metal, these
compositions are amazingly cliche free too...and if they have cliches,
and all music does more or less ,they're ones of their own making
(like early bebop) .I like both the guitarists in these bands too, but
i think they're both somewhat overpowered by the Marston' Warrmachine
too. But both of them play very nicely and fit in perfectly for these
pieces. I personally prefer the guitarist in dysrhythmia because he
uses an almost (for this music) cleanish and single coily tone, like a
half strat/half tank--the last dysrhythmia CD is unbelievable for--
amongst other things--being an all-instrumental metal record with a
gagillion notes and not a single solo.....no kidding\
jjtko75
2009-01-10 02:24:30 UTC
Permalink
I guess I missed this post the first time around, but since it's being
kept alive, I have 2 suggestions. First, Willie Nelson's album "Me
and the Drummer" is fantastic. Then there's the guitarist Munir
Hossn.

John
Post by Paul
hey all,
i'm trying to expand my horizons a little more. i've been listening to
jazz almost exclusively for a while, but hearing stuff like mehldau's
elegiac cycle, rosenwinkel's heartcore, aaron parks' invisible cinema,
etc. i see all this stuff about how they're influenced by all kinds of
music, and i want my music to be influenced by all music as well;
so i'm looking for suggestions from you guys of some stuff i should
check out for different genres, like classical, electronic/
alternative, hip hop. as far as the alternative and hip hop stuff
goes, i'm hoping to find something a little more musical/artistic than
a lot of the stuff i've heard...and for classical i don't even know
where to begin. i like debussy's doctor gradus and clair de lune. i've
read mehldauh mentioning brahms and rosenwinkel mentioning shoenberg
somewhere, but i don't know anything about them.
thanks a lot
david morley
2009-01-17 11:36:32 UTC
Permalink
Electronic music, I would check out Plaid, Aphex Twin (ambient works II
is a nice one) and stuff in that vein. Then again, I make stuff like
that as a day job when I don't pretend to play guitar, so maybe I am
biased. Can hear what I do @ myspace.com/morleysmusic
Gentle Giant, Black Sabbath, Brian Eno, Tangerine Dream (Rubycon), Klaus
Schulze (Timewind) etc
So much good stuff out there.
Post by Paul
hey all,
i'm trying to expand my horizons a little more. i've been listening to
jazz almost exclusively for a while, but hearing stuff like mehldau's
elegiac cycle, rosenwinkel's heartcore, aaron parks' invisible cinema,
etc. i see all this stuff about how they're influenced by all kinds of
music, and i want my music to be influenced by all music as well;
so i'm looking for suggestions from you guys of some stuff i should
check out for different genres, like classical, electronic/
alternative, hip hop. as far as the alternative and hip hop stuff
goes, i'm hoping to find something a little more musical/artistic than
a lot of the stuff i've heard...and for classical i don't even know
where to begin. i like debussy's doctor gradus and clair de lune. i've
read mehldauh mentioning brahms and rosenwinkel mentioning shoenberg
somewhere, but i don't know anything about them.
thanks a lot
Tim McNamara
2009-01-15 00:19:34 UTC
Permalink
In article
Post by Paul
hey all,
i'm trying to expand my horizons a little more. i've been listening
to jazz almost exclusively for a while, but hearing stuff like
mehldau's elegiac cycle, rosenwinkel's heartcore, aaron parks'
invisible cinema, etc. i see all this stuff about how they're
influenced by all kinds of music, and i want my music to be
influenced by all music as well;
so i'm looking for suggestions from you guys of some stuff i should
check out for different genres, like classical, electronic/
alternative, hip hop. as far as the alternative and hip hop stuff
goes, i'm hoping to find something a little more musical/artistic
than a lot of the stuff i've heard...and for classical i don't even
know where to begin. i like debussy's doctor gradus and clair de
lune. i've read mehldauh mentioning brahms and rosenwinkel mentioning
shoenberg somewhere, but i don't know anything about them.
thanks a lot
Well, off the top of my head I'd recommend at three records to check
out, mainly because I've listened to them recently:

The Grateful Dead, One From the Vault (the Dead are a genre of music)

Rory Gallagher, Irish Tour '74 (blues extended into something else)

Hot Tuna (the eponymous first record, live acoustic blues)
unknownguitarplayer
2009-01-15 14:09:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul
hey all,
i'm trying to expand my horizons a little more. i've been listening to
jazz almost exclusively for a while, but hearing stuff like mehldau's
elegiac cycle, rosenwinkel's heartcore, aaron parks' invisible cinema,
etc. i see all this stuff about how they're influenced by all kinds of
music, and i want my music to be influenced by all music as well;
so i'm looking for suggestions from you guys of some stuff i should
check out for different genres, like classical, electronic/
alternative, hip hop. as far as the alternative and hip hop stuff
goes, i'm hoping to find something a little more musical/artistic than
a lot of the stuff i've heard...and for classical i don't even know
where to begin. i like debussy's doctor gradus and clair de lune. i've
read mehldauh mentioning brahms and rosenwinkel mentioning shoenberg
somewhere, but i don't know anything about them.
thanks a lot
Motown celebrates its 50th anniversary this week, but James
Jamerson...that's seriously forever!


tomsalvojazz
2009-01-16 14:25:25 UTC
Permalink
I find that people who appreciate the virtuosity and the
interrelationships associated with jazz also appreciate the complexity
and sophistication of progressive music. I'd recommend some of the
older Dream Theater stuff (Images and Words; Awake). It's pretty
metallic, but if you keep an open mind get past it, the compositions
and arrangements are amazing and each individual player is a master at
his respective instrument.
Gerry
2009-01-16 15:44:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by tomsalvojazz
I find that people who appreciate the virtuosity and the
interrelationships associated with jazz also appreciate the complexity
and sophistication of progressive music. I'd recommend some of the
older Dream Theater stuff (Images and Words; Awake). It's pretty
metallic, but if you keep an open mind get past it, the compositions
and arrangements are amazing and each individual player is a master at
his respective instrument.
Does anybody follow opera? My wife use to enjoy listening to a little
on Sunday mornings, but it got misplaced somewhere along the way.
Three years ago the New York Metropolitan Opera began high-def
"narrow-casting" Saturday morning matinees, to regional movie theatres.
We went to its premiere. It was interesting. But the following year
one of the movie theater's selected was about a mile from our house.
So we saw the bulk of that season. This season we're watching them
again.

Last season we went to a local live opera at Opera Pacific. Frankly I
prefer the Met: it's only $20 bucks instead of $75, I don't need to
take opera glasses, wear a tie, give up a Saturday night, jockey for
parking, plot a dinner in close proximity, and all the rest. Besides I
can see facial expressions and everything. It's fantastic.

In the process I've begun to learn a lot about opera and come to a real
appreciation for it. Do any other jazz guitarists care about opera?

Note that most of you living in major metropolitan areas could be
seeing it as well, as they've added a lot of cities, all over the world
to the mix. Of the 10 or so performances they do, they also have an
"encore" telecast (actually they mail a DVD to the theatre) a week or
two after the initial performance.
--
Dogmatism kills jazz. Iconoclasm kills rock. Rock dulls scissors.
Keith Freeman
2009-01-17 12:56:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gerry
In the process I've begun to learn a lot about opera and come to a real
appreciation for it. Do any other jazz guitarists care about opera?
I'm partial to a good dose of Puccini, provided it's a traditional
production and not that pretentious, ugly post-modern stuff ;-}

-Keith

Clips, Portable Changes, tips etc.: www.keithfreemantrio.nl
e-mail: info AT keithfreemantrio DOT nl
woland99
2009-01-16 16:05:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul
hey all,
i'm trying to expand my horizons a little more. i've been listening to
jazz almost exclusively for a while, but hearing stuff like mehldau's
elegiac cycle, rosenwinkel's heartcore, aaron parks' invisible cinema,
etc. i see all this stuff about how they're influenced by all kinds of
music, and i want my music to be influenced by all music as well;
so i'm looking for suggestions from you guys of some stuff i should
check out for different genres, like classical, electronic/
alternative, hip hop. as far as the alternative and hip hop stuff
goes, i'm hoping to find something a little more musical/artistic than
a lot of the stuff i've heard...and for classical i don't even know
where to begin. i like debussy's doctor gradus and clair de lune. i've
read mehldauh mentioning brahms and rosenwinkel mentioning shoenberg
somewhere, but i don't know anything about them.
thanks a lot
Orchestra Baobab - esp. "Bamba" album. Also "Pirate's Choice".
Great 1970-80s Senegalese band playing African interpretation
of Cuban "Son" music. Strange Arabic influences (esp in vocals).
FANTASTIC lead guitarist - Barthelemy Attisso - more laidback
than Jerry Garcia x 3. Imagine Greatful Dead were black Muslims
from Cuba.
j***@msn.com
2009-01-22 23:56:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul
hey all,
i'm trying to expand my horizons a little more. i've been listening to
jazz almost exclusively for a while, but hearing stuff like mehldau's
elegiac cycle, rosenwinkel's heartcore, aaron parks' invisible cinema,
etc. i see all this stuff about how they're influenced by all kinds of
music, and i want my music to be influenced by all music as well;
so i'm looking for suggestions from you guys of some stuff i should
check out for different genres, like classical
Purcell: music for viols
Beethoven: bagatelles and dances
Liszt: orchestral works without piano
Verdi: overtures and ballet music
Wagner: orchestral works without vocals
Franck: Symphony In D Minor
Satie: solo piano
Holst: The Planets

Joseph Scott
danstearns
2009-02-10 01:59:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul
hey all,
i'm trying to expand my horizons a little more. i've been listening to
jazz almost exclusively for a while, but hearing stuff like mehldau's
elegiac cycle, rosenwinkel's heartcore, aaron parks' invisible cinema,
etc. i see all this stuff about how they're influenced by all kinds of
music, and i want my music to be influenced by all music as well;
so i'm looking for suggestions from you guys of some stuff i should
check out for different genres, like classical, electronic/
alternative, hip hop. as far as the alternative and hip hop stuff
goes, i'm hoping to find something a little more musical/artistic than
a lot of the stuff i've heard...and for classical i don't even know
where to begin. i like debussy's doctor gradus and clair de lune. i've
read mehldauh mentioning brahms and rosenwinkel mentioning shoenberg
somewhere, but i don't know anything about them.
thanks a lot
As another suggestion I’d recommend another christmas present from my
wife------>Portishead (got their first 3 Cds as a present in a bit of
well-timed nostalgia).and hey, even if they're not always as
innovative as the drawers they rummage, this is a band that always,
alwaaaaays sounds good and should be an easy-in for jazzers to this
trip-hopping world!

personally i like their bummingest stuff best, half day closing for
example, YIKES, it still gives me goose pimples to this day!and if
they didn't have as high highs as contemporaries and semi-
contemporaries like Radiohead and Bjork, the also never had as low
lows and were veeeery consistent......i mean is there a bad song on
their 2nd record, Portishead------>answer, NO, THERE ISN'T!
Loading...