Al Caiola - Hack?

[Gerry]

I get confused by a few players from the 50-'s and 60's and forget
which ones I've written off (Sal Salvador), and those that I've written
off but have to feign respect (Johnny Smith). No offense to
either--I'd rather listen to them than many of their peers.

I use to get Al Caiola mixed up with Al Viola--the latter is much
beloved avuncular player out here (Socal). At age 61 I guess I am
aspiring to be, at the very least, avuncular.

I have a brain for words. When I was 36 I woke up with a dream that
concerned avuncular. I said it didn't exist and looked it up in a
dictionary. The dictionary was full of glyphs.

When I woke up, I looked it up in the dictionary. It was a word. And
now something to which I aspire. A couple of years later I had the same
dream with the word "shibboleth". Then next year it was "thanotos".

I moved from Dallas to Newport Beach and I haven't had the dream since.
All considered "avuncular" isn't so bad.

I just listened to all of Caiola's possibly statement, "Deep in a
Dream" ('55). Intolerably dull. And no sould in the ballads, just a
sleepy empty-eyed trudging.

[Jim Soloway]

I get confused by a few players from the 50-'s and 60's and forget
which ones I've written off (Sal Salvador), and those that I've written
off but have to feign respect (Johnny Smith). No offense to
either--I'd rather listen to them than many of their peers.
I use to get Al Caiola mixed up with Al Viola--the latter is much
beloved avuncular player out here (Socal). At age 61 I guess I am
aspiring to be, at the very least, avuncular.
I have a brain for words. When I was 36 I woke up with a dream that
concerned avuncular. I said it didn't exist and looked it up in a
dictionary. The dictionary was full of glyphs.
When I woke up, I looked it up in the dictionary. It was a word. And
now something to which I aspire. A couple of years later I had the same
dream with the word "shibboleth". Then next year it was "thanotos".
I moved from Dallas to Newport Beach and I haven't had the dream since.
All considered "avuncular" isn't so bad.
I just listened to all of Caiola's possibly statement, "Deep in a
Dream" ('55). Intolerably dull. And no sould in the ballads, just a
sleepy empty-eyed trudging.
--
Music is the best means we have of digesting time. -- W. H. Auden

Al Caiola was absolutely not a hack. For that matter, neither was Sal Salvador. They were commercial guitars making a living and a lot of what they worked on was pretty lifeless but they were both capable of playing some wonderful music when they had the opportunity.

[thomas]

I get confused by a few players from the 50-'s and 60's and forget
which ones I've written off (Sal Salvador), and those that I've written
off but have to feign respect (Johnny Smith). No offense to
either--I'd rather listen to them than many of their peers.
I use to get Al Caiola mixed up with Al Viola--the latter is much
beloved avuncular player out here (Socal). At age 61 I guess I am
aspiring to be, at the very least, avuncular.
I have a brain for words. When I was 36 I woke up with a dream that
concerned avuncular. I said it didn't exist and looked it up in a
dictionary. The dictionary was full of glyphs.
When I woke up, I looked it up in the dictionary. It was a word. And
now something to which I aspire. A couple of years later I had the same
dream with the word "shibboleth". Then next year it was "thanotos".
I moved from Dallas to Newport Beach and I haven't had the dream since.
All considered "avuncular" isn't so bad.
I just listened to all of Caiola's possibly statement, "Deep in a
Dream" ('55). Intolerably dull. And no sould in the ballads, just a
sleepy empty-eyed trudging.
--
Music is the best means we have of digesting time. -- W. H. Auden

Great studio players usually aren't hacks, but sometimes they sort of sound that way.

[Klatu Verata Necktie]

I get the feeling that this is meant to be a satirical post.

> I get confused by a few players from the 50-'s and 60's and forget
> which ones I've written off (Sal Salvador), and those that I've written
> off but have to feign respect (Johnny Smith). No offense to
> either--I'd rather listen to them than many of their peers.
>
> I use to get Al Caiola mixed up with Al Viola--the latter is much
> beloved avuncular player out here (Socal). At age 61 I guess I am
> aspiring to be, at the very least, avuncular.
>
> I have a brain for words. When I was 36 I woke up with a dream that
> concerned avuncular. I said it didn't exist and looked it up in a
> dictionary. The dictionary was full of glyphs.
>
> When I woke up, I looked it up in the dictionary. It was a word. And
> now something to which I aspire. A couple of years later I had the same
> dream with the word "shibboleth". Then next year it was "thanotos".
>
> I moved from Dallas to Newport Beach and I haven't had the dream since.
> All considered "avuncular" isn't so bad.
>
> I just listened to all of Caiola's possibly statement, "Deep in a
> Dream" ('55). Intolerably dull. And no sould in the ballads, just a
> sleepy empty-eyed trudging.
> --
> Music is the best means we have of digesting time. -- W. H. Auden
Great studio players usually aren't hacks, but sometimes they sort of sound that way.

[Gerry]

Post by Klatu Verata Necktie
I get the feeling that this is meant to be a satirical post.

Not completely. I just got off track. Certainly Caiola knows how to
play the guitar and plays it well. But then tunes I've heard on four
albums are all abysmal. And these are all albums that appeared under
his own name. It is just dreadful music, even if the playing skills
are top-notch. As I said, dull and lifeless.

Maybe I'm wrong: Which albums are considered his hallmark.

And no slight against Salvador, an excellent musician. I've just ever
heard a lick of it that moved me, and with Sal and I've heard even.
Not; "hack" isn't right because it's rife with ambiguity.

Any recommendations of Sal's career highlist would be appreciated, one
last time before ridding myself of it all. Life's too damn short and I
have too many recordings to listen to!

[van]

> I get the feeling that this is meant to be a satirical post.
Not completely. I just got off track. Certainly Caiola knows how to
play the guitar and plays it well. But then tunes I've heard on four
albums are all abysmal. And these are all albums that appeared under
his own name. It is just dreadful music, even if the playing skills
are top-notch. As I said, dull and lifeless.
Maybe I'm wrong: Which albums are considered his hallmark.
And no slight against Salvador, an excellent musician. I've just ever
heard a lick of it that moved me, and with Sal and I've heard even.
Not; "hack" isn't right because it's rife with ambiguity.
Any recommendations of Sal's career highlist would be appreciated, one
last time before ridding myself of it all. Life's too damn short and I
have too many recordings to listen to!
--
Music is the best means we have of digesting time. -- W. H. Auden

Like Tony Mottola, most of the recordings AC made were Muzak.
Even Smith made a lot of "Mood Music" recordings in the 50s.
Both Smith and Mottola were great technicians and sight-readers, but didn't identify themselves as jazz players.
I never liked the sound Caiola got- turned the bass EQ way too high for my taste.
Even one of SS's friends admits that SS was a very plodding, insensitive jazz player, but I doubt most people here (not including you) can hear what I mean.
The only player of the 60s who was kind of marketed as a Muzak player, but who could swing/improvise his ass off was Buddy Fite, who (as he stated) lived his life "like a fish through water" and is pretty much forgotten.

[Gerry]

Post by van
The only player of the 60s who was kind of marketed as a Muzak player,
but who could swing/improvise his ass off was Buddy Fite, who (as he
stated) lived his life "like a fish through water" and is pretty much
forgotten.

I was pretty amazed by Fite. I couldn't begin to understand his right hand.

Another digression...

We've likely discussed him. I encountered him just as I turned left
from playing rock/blues around 1971 when I was bout 20. I had met a
rock/blues guitarist traveling through town that was better than
me--which was a first in my little world. He came over to my place and
played stuff that had me realizing that I was less than a beginner. I
could barely make sense of what he was doing with either hand.

I said, "Where the hell did you get all that stuff", and he said, "From
any jazz guitarist at all: Rock is like child's toy to them." He
mentioned George Benson, Wes Montgomery and Joe Beck. I only recall the
last because I said, "You mean Jeff?", "No, Joe Beck."

I disregarded Wes completely as I had already bought "Down Here on the
Ground" and so knew that Wes sucked (it was still four years before I
encountered "Bumpin'").

So I went to the store and bought all I could find:

Kenny Burrell - God Bless the Child (very CTI)
Gabor Szabo - High Contrast (w/Bobby Womack)
George Benson - Giblet Gravy
Buddy Fite - Changes

After listening to these in endless rotation for about 2 months, I
couldn't find anything they had in common. I certainly couldn't figure
out what any of them were doing. I assumed Bloomfield, Clapton and Beck
had never heard of any of them.

What a wacky pile I started with. Nevertheless I became enthralled with
Benson. But since half the jazz guitar albums I pawed through said "the
best since Charlie Christian", I went out and got a big ol' double set
of Christian and shedded that for about 6 months. My rock friends
thought I had lost my mind. I guess I had.

[TD]

Post by Klatu Verata Necktie
I get the feeling that this is meant to be a satirical post.

Not completely. I just got off track.  Certainly Caiola knows how to
play the guitar and plays it well.  But then tunes I've heard on four
albums are all abysmal.  And these are all albums that appeared under
his own name.  It is just dreadful music, even if the playing skills
are top-notch.  As I said, dull and lifeless.
Maybe I'm wrong: Which albums are considered his hallmark.
And no slight against Salvador, an excellent musician.  I've just ever
heard a lick of it that moved me, and with Sal and I've heard even.
Not; "hack" isn't right because it's rife with ambiguity.
Any recommendations of Sal's career highlist would be appreciated, one
last time before ridding myself of it all.  Life's too damn short and I
have too many recordings to listen to!
--
Music is the best means we have of digesting time. -- W. H. Auden

Be careful, you may find yourself hacking through them all.

[dunlop212]

You have to like music like this:

I do. Best doorbell solo ever.

[Gerry]

Post by dunlop212
http://youtu.be/hTvp2z_D5kY

I like it the way I like chocolate pudding: It's not dinner and two
days in a row is one day too many.

Post by dunlop212
I do. Best doorbell solo ever.

No one can argue with that!

The first cut on the album with him and Don Arnone has the same gleeful
vibe. Ten minutes later you're begging the doctor to kill you.

[jimmybruno]

Post by Gerry

Post by dunlop212
http://youtu.be/hTvp2z_D5kY

I like it the way I like chocolate pudding: It's not dinner and two
days in a row is one day too many.

Post by dunlop212
I do. Best doorbell solo ever.

No one can argue with that!
The first cut on the album with him and Don Arnone has the same gleeful
vibe. Ten minutes later you're begging the doctor to kill you.
--
Music is the best means we have of digesting time. -- W. H. Auden

Both Al Caiola and Al Viola were both accomplished musicians. First
call for everything in their day. They certainly weren't hacks by any
stretch.

They both have forgotten more music than anyone on this board. There
is no one here who could carry their guitar case. ( with the
exception of a few)

[jimmybruno]

Post by Gerry

Post by dunlop212
http://youtu.be/hTvp2z_D5kY

I like it the way I like chocolate pudding: It's not dinner and two
days in a row is one day too many.

Post by dunlop212
I do. Best doorbell solo ever.

No one can argue with that!
The first cut on the album with him and Don Arnone has the same gleeful
vibe. Ten minutes later you're begging the doctor to kill you.
--
Music is the best means we have of digesting time. -- W. H. Auden

Both Al Caiola and Al Viola were both accomplished musicians.  First
call for everything in their day.  They certainly weren't hacks by any
stretch.
They both have forgotten more music than anyone on this board.  There
is no one here who could carry their guitar case.  ( with the
exception of a few)

I have to include Sal Savador as well. Great player. I have played
jazz with all three at one time or another

[jimmybruno]

Post by Gerry

Post by dunlop212
http://youtu.be/hTvp2z_D5kY

I like it the way I like chocolate pudding: It's not dinner and two
days in a row is one day too many.

Post by dunlop212
I do. Best doorbell solo ever.

No one can argue with that!
The first cut on the album with him and Don Arnone has the same gleeful
vibe. Ten minutes later you're begging the doctor to kill you.
--
Music is the best means we have of digesting time. -- W. H. Auden

Both Al Caiola and Al Viola were both accomplished musicians.  First
call for everything in their day.  They certainly weren't hacks by any
stretch.
They both have forgotten more music than anyone on this board.  There
is no one here who could carry their guitar case.  ( with the
exception of a few)

I have to include Sal Savador as well.  Great player.  I have played
jazz with all three at one time or another

Something else to consider. No one gets to the top of their
profession because they suck. It's not politics like people who can't
get hired think. It's because they are the best guy for the job

[Gerry]

Post by jimmybruno
Both Al Caiola and Al Viola were both accomplished musicians. First
call for everything in their day. They certainly weren't hacks by any
stretch.

Which album do you think best represents their skills from a "listening
to good music" standpoint?

[TD]

Post by Gerry

Both Al Caiola and Al Viola were both accomplished musicians.  First
call for everything in their day.  They certainly weren't hacks by any
stretch.

Which album do you think best represents their skills from a "listening
to good music" standpoint?
--
Music is the best means we have of digesting time. -- W. H. Auden

All of us players in the business always knew that these chaps were
the cream of the crop. I knew about them from my teachers when I was a
kid. Lots of great players played the music at hand, because it was a
living. And whatever that music was at the time and for what purpose,
could never warrant a "hack", if you are calling these fine musicians
mediocre as the definition of 'hack.' Too much is being taken for
granted these days, especially by people who never really did anything
remotely related to the level of Al Caiola, Al Viola, and Tony
Mottola. Many fine players are put down in the same fashion by the
same heads and why? Because, they were never dancing around in the
limelight playing the guitar behind their backs or with picking with
their teeth or flashing the audience far into the Ozone by milking the
lydian mode while dressed like an Indian Chief?

-TD

[van]

On 2012-07-27 17:00:06 +0000, jimmybruno said: > Both Al Caiola and Al Viola were both accomplished musicians. First > call for everything in their day. They certainly weren't hacks by any > stretch. Which album do you think best represents their skills from a "listening to good music" standpoint? -- Music is the best means we have of digesting time. -- W. H. Auden

All those guys were superlative musicians. In terms of their recordings, they either played exactly what was required for the session that they were hired, or made their own records, which were geared towards a non-jazz audience (with the exception of Sal Salvador, of course).
I had hoped that "Deep in a Dream" was an exception, but since our tastes are similar, you probably saved me ten bucks.
I just bought a great Tony Mottola record off of ebay that features the writing of Chris Dedrick (the genius behind The Free Design) called "Warm,Wild and Wonderful" that had a few tracks that were interesting.

[Jim Soloway]

I thought I'd just pop this up here for anyone who hasn't spent any real time with any of these players. It's Johnny Mathis singing with Al Caiola and Tony Mattola on guitars and Milt Hinton on bass. It's an incredibly beautiful album with just the fur of them throughout. The interplay between Caiola and Mattola is really wonderful.

[dunlop212]

Just to reply to the youtube query; the answer is, of course, L'Avventura.

[thomas]

Post by dunlop212
Just to reply to the youtube query; the answer is, of course, L'Avventura.

Monica Vitti is the most gorgeous actress of all times.

[Greger Hoel]

Post by Jim Soloway
I thought I'd just pop this up here for anyone who hasn't spent any real
time with any of these players. It's Johnny Mathis singing with Al
Caiola and Tony Mattola on guitars and Milt Hinton on bass. It's an
incredibly beautiful album with just the fur of them throughout. The
interplay between Caiola and Mattola is really wonderful.
http://youtu.be/nMp0uruzDfc

Great tune; do you know which track is Caiola and which is Mottola?

[jps]

Post by Greger Hoel

Post by Jim Soloway
I thought I'd just pop this up here for anyone who hasn't spent any real
time with any of these players. It's Johnny Mathis singing with Al
Caiola and Tony Mattola on guitars and Milt Hinton on bass. It's an
incredibly beautiful album with just the fur of them throughout. The
interplay between Caiola and Mattola is really wonderful.
http://youtu.be/nMp0uruzDfc

Great tune; do you know which track is Caiola and which is Mottola?
--
Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

This goes WAY back....i remember seeing Al Caiola backup Mike Douglas on Mike's show.they did Ipanema and Al just killed on it.

[Gerry]

On 2012-07-27 00:02:18 +0000, Gerry said:

[ I shouldn't have used the word "hack" in any relationship to a
musician, living or dead, guitarist or other. I rescind it completely
and totally and apologize for its use. Most of the time I hear others
use it, it's bullshit. It was in this case too. ]

Post by Gerry
I just listened to all of Caiola's possibly statement, "Deep in a
Dream" ('55). Intolerably dull. And no soul in the ballads, just a
sleepy empty-eyed trudging.

I guess I should have couched it like this: If Al Caiola is a "jazz
guitarist" is there anything worthwhile, a recording specifically, that
others would use as a definitive statement of his oeuvre?

There is a lot of great music--too much to listen to in life. Seems
I've listened to Caiola's version of "Bonanza" a few times, while
hearing relatively little of, say, Al Casey. Him playing Rosetta was
so fine I had to work up a version of it yesterday.

For example.

[Jonathan]

Post by Gerry
I get confused by a few players from the 50-'s and 60's and forget
which ones I've written off (Sal Salvador), and those that I've written
off but have to feign respect (Johnny Smith). No offense to
either--I'd rather listen to them than many of their peers.
I use to get Al Caiola mixed up with Al Viola--the latter is much
beloved avuncular player out here (Socal). At age 61 I guess I am
aspiring to be, at the very least, avuncular.
I have a brain for words. When I was 36 I woke up with a dream that
concerned avuncular. I said it didn't exist and looked it up in a
dictionary. The dictionary was full of glyphs.
When I woke up, I looked it up in the dictionary. It was a word. And
now something to which I aspire. A couple of years later I had the same
dream with the word "shibboleth". Then next year it was "thanotos".
I moved from Dallas to Newport Beach and I haven't had the dream since.
All considered "avuncular" isn't so bad.
I just listened to all of Caiola's possibly statement, "Deep in a
Dream" ('55). Intolerably dull. And no sould in the ballads, just a
sleepy empty-eyed trudging.
--
Music is the best means we have of digesting time. -- W. H. Auden

You spent five minutes of your life that you'll never get back to publicly call out a prominent guitarist as a hack?

It's your life, but I'd rather hear about someone you greatly admire.

[Gerry]

Post by Jonathan
You spent five minutes of your life that you'll never get back to
publicly call out a prominent guitarist as a hack?
It's your life, but I'd rather hear about someone you greatly admire.

Sorry, I only apologize for any one fuck-up one time.

I wanted to find out if there is any "there" there. I've certainly
gotten opinions about how people "feel" about Al Caiola, God bless him
and his musicianship.

[Jonathan]

Post by Gerry

Post by Jonathan
You spent five minutes of your life that you'll never get back to
publicly call out a prominent guitarist as a hack?
It's your life, but I'd rather hear about someone you greatly admire.

Sorry, I only apologize for any one fuck-up one time.
I wanted to find out if there is any "there" there. I've certainly
gotten opinions about how people "feel" about Al Caiola, God bless him
and his musicianship.
--
Music is the best means we have of digesting time. -- W. H. Auden

Hey, we've all been there. Let he who has never posted something regrettable cast the first stone.

[TD]

Post by Jonathan

Post by Gerry

Post by Jonathan
You spent five minutes of your life that you'll never get back to
publicly call out a prominent guitarist as a hack?
It's your life, but I'd rather hear about someone you greatly admire.

Sorry, I only apologize for any one fuck-up one time.
I wanted to find out if there is any "there" there. I've certainly
gotten opinions about how people "feel" about Al Caiola, God bless him
and his musicianship.
--
Music is the best means we have of digesting time. -- W. H. Auden

Hey, we've all been there. Let he who has never posted something regrettable cast the first stone.

Ummm, Mick?...Charlie?

[Greger Hoel]

Post by TD
Ummm, Mick?

Dundee?

[charlieguitar]

I do

Post by TD

Post by Jonathan

Post by Gerry

Post by Jonathan
You spent five minutes of your life that you'll never get back to
publicly call out a prominent guitarist as a hack?
It's your life, but I'd rather hear about someone you greatly admire.

Sorry, I only apologize for any one fuck-up one time.
I wanted to find out if there is any "there" there. I've certainly
gotten opinions about how people "feel" about Al Caiola, God bless him
and his musicianship.
--
Music is the best means we have of digesting time. -- W. H. Auden

Hey, we've all been there. Let he who has never posted something regrettable cast the first stone.

Ummm, Mick?...Charlie

I don't know why my name has been pulled into this and deeply resemble the implications being made here!

[Dom Minasi]

Post by Gerry
I get confused by a few players from the 50-'s and 60's and forget
which ones I've written off (Sal Salvador), and those that I've written
off but have to feign respect (Johnny Smith). No offense to
either--I'd rather listen to them than many of their peers.
I use to get Al Caiola mixed up with Al Viola--the latter is much
beloved avuncular player out here (Socal). At age 61 I guess I am
aspiring to be, at the very least, avuncular.
I have a brain for words. When I was 36 I woke up with a dream that
concerned avuncular. I said it didn't exist and looked it up in a
dictionary. The dictionary was full of glyphs.
When I woke up, I looked it up in the dictionary. It was a word. And
now something to which I aspire. A couple of years later I had the same
dream with the word "shibboleth". Then next year it was "thanotos".
I moved from Dallas to Newport Beach and I haven't had the dream since.
All considered "avuncular" isn't so bad.
I just listened to all of Caiola's possibly statement, "Deep in a
Dream" ('55). Intolerably dull. And no sould in the ballads, just a
sleepy empty-eyed trudging.
--
Music is the best means we have of digesting time. -- W. H. Auden

[Dom Minasi]

Post by Gerry
I get confused by a few players from the 50-'s and 60's and forget
which ones I've written off (Sal Salvador), and those that I've written
off but have to feign respect (Johnny Smith). No offense to
either--I'd rather listen to them than many of their peers.
I use to get Al Caiola mixed up with Al Viola--the latter is much
beloved avuncular player out here (Socal). At age 61 I guess I am
aspiring to be, at the very least, avuncular.
I have a brain for words. When I was 36 I woke up with a dream that
concerned avuncular. I said it didn't exist and looked it up in a
dictionary. The dictionary was full of glyphs.
When I woke up, I looked it up in the dictionary. It was a word. And
now something to which I aspire. A couple of years later I had the same
dream with the word "shibboleth". Then next year it was "thanotos".
I moved from Dallas to Newport Beach and I haven't had the dream since.
All considered "avuncular" isn't so bad.
I just listened to all of Caiola's possibly statement, "Deep in a
Dream" ('55). Intolerably dull. And no sould in the ballads, just a
sleepy empty-eyed trudging.
-- I agree with Jimmy and Tony. They all could play. Whether they wanted to be known as jazz players is another thing. The best way to make a living in those days was to be a studio player and Al and Tony were the best. The music may have been boring but some of it was a bitch to read and these guys could do it at sight and transpose it if they had too.

Sal went the jazz and teaching route and many great players came from Sal's pupil list.

Post by Gerry
Music is the best means we have of digesting time. -- W. H. Auden
I get confused by a few players from the 50-'s and 60's and forget
which ones I've written off (Sal Salvador), and those that I've written
off but have to feign respect (Johnny Smith). No offense to
either--I'd rather listen to them than many of their peers.
I use to get Al Caiola mixed up with Al Viola--the latter is much
beloved avuncular player out here (Socal). At age 61 I guess I am
aspiring to be, at the very least, avuncular.
I have a brain for words. When I was 36 I woke up with a dream that
concerned avuncular. I said it didn't exist and looked it up in a
dictionary. The dictionary was full of glyphs.
When I woke up, I looked it up in the dictionary. It was a word. And
now something to which I aspire. A couple of years later I had the same
dream with the word "shibboleth". Then next year it was "thanotos".
I moved from Dallas to Newport Beach and I haven't had the dream since.
All considered "avuncular" isn't so bad.
I just listened to all of Caiola's possibly statement, "Deep in a
Dream" ('55). Intolerably dull. And no sould in the ballads, just a
sleepy empty-eyed trudging.
--
Music is the best means we have of digesting time. -- W. H. Auden

[Jonathan]

Post by Gerry
I get confused by a few players from the 50-'s and 60's and forget
which ones I've written off (Sal Salvador), and those that I've written
off but have to feign respect (Johnny Smith). No offense to
either--I'd rather listen to them than many of their peers.
I use to get Al Caiola mixed up with Al Viola--the latter is much
beloved avuncular player out here (Socal). At age 61 I guess I am
aspiring to be, at the very least, avuncular.
I have a brain for words. When I was 36 I woke up with a dream that
concerned avuncular. I said it didn't exist and looked it up in a
dictionary. The dictionary was full of glyphs.
When I woke up, I looked it up in the dictionary. It was a word. And
now something to which I aspire. A couple of years later I had the same
dream with the word "shibboleth". Then next year it was "thanotos".
I moved from Dallas to Newport Beach and I haven't had the dream since.
All considered "avuncular" isn't so bad.
I just listened to all of Caiola's possibly statement, "Deep in a
Dream" ('55). Intolerably dull. And no sould in the ballads, just a
sleepy empty-eyed trudging.
--
Music is the best means we have of digesting time. -- W. H. Auden

I have to keep reminding myself that you can't "peg" any serious musician after hearing one or two things he's done. You could judge a lot of giants pretty harshly if all you heard was the worst thing they ever did.

I can think of lots of great musicians I love who have recorded something at some point that would make me not want to hear more of them if that was all I had heard. I can also think of musicians I was dragged out to hear live after seeing one YouTube clip that I didn't think much of -- and then really enjoying their live performance.

Musicians grow and change. If they're daring, sometimes they try experiments that don't work out. They're sometimes compelled to record things they wouldn't otherwise record in order to put food on the table. They perform with singers who wouldn't be their first choice of a collaborator in a perfect world. They record songs and arrangements that weren't their choice, especially if they're studio players. Sometimes they just have bad days and don't play their best, or they make a recording early in their career that fails to show the promise of what they later develop into as artists.

I think you've got to take some time and hear a number of examples of someone's work before you can make an informed judgment about them. Even then, you never really know what they're capable of. People can surprise you.

[Gerry]

Post by Jonathan
I have to keep reminding myself that you can't "peg" any serious
musician after hearing one or two things he's done. You could judge a
lot of giants pretty harshly if all you heard was the worst thing they
ever did.

I agree totally. That's the reason I've listened to so many jazz
guitarists with a great deal of interest and focus, and specifically
why I've listened to Caiola, and not for the first time, over these
past few days.

Post by Jonathan
I can think of lots of great musicians I love who have recorded
something at some point that would make me not want to hear more of
them if that was all I had heard. I can also think of musicians I was
dragged out to hear live after seeing one YouTube clip that I didn't
think much of -- and then really enjoying their live performance.
Musicians grow and change. If they're daring, sometimes they try
experiments that don't work out. They're sometimes compelled to record
things they wouldn't otherwise record in order to put food on the
table. They perform with singers who wouldn't be their first choice of
a collaborator in a perfect world. They record songs and arrangements
that weren't their choice, especially if they're studio players.
Sometimes they just have bad days and don't play their best, or they
make a recording early in their career that fails to show the promise
of what they later develop into as artists.
I think you've got to take some time and hear a number of examples of
someone's work before you can make an informed judgment about them.
Even then, you never really know what they're capable of. People can
surprise you.

I assume you're just ruminating on the topic in the generic, rather
that addressing my questions, since I concur with all of your thinking.
It mirrors completely my own thinking. That's why I'm asking if
anyone knows what the "good" records are by Caiola. The lack of
response in this regard is likely my answer.

I use to get him an Al Viola confused: Both did a lot of session work
and played in large settings in which they were most frequently not the
center of interest. Nevertheless there are a few albums by Viola that
are pretty good and demonstrative of his creative ability.

Periodically we have guitarists come to rmmgj and ask "Who should I
listen to and study? Which jazz guitarists would you recommend?" I
assume, no matter how wonderful a reader, a husband and father, a
stand-up guy in the community, and as generous and personable as he
was--truly a mensch--there is no recording that anyone would proffer as
exemplary of his unique skills as a reader.

That's okay. I suppose I could have worded this much more
succinctly--not one of my greater talents--as "What's Al Caiola's best
record?" Provided there was any response at all, and after the
difficulty in procuring it, I could have discarded it and moved on.

There are a lot of good and decent humans who played instruments very
well and produced no music that will outlive them. That's actually the
norm--not an insult or statement of shame.

[Jonathan]

Post by Gerry
I assume you're just ruminating on the topic in the generic, rather
that addressing my questions, since I concur with all of your thinking.

Yep, just ruminating on the topic in the generic.

[Gerry]

Post by Jonathan

Post by Gerry
I assume you're just ruminating on the topic in the generic, rather
that addressing my questions, since I concur with all of your thinking.

Yep, just ruminating on the topic in the generic.

I'd like to do that in a larger sense some time, though not with this
ill-chosen subject header.

Growing and expanding as a musician, as Caiola clearly did, whether you
play live gigs, or as in his case do session work, or whether you never
do either: it's all music.

Some are eager to quickly divide musicians/guitarists into professional
v. "wannabee", the stock statement of contempt for non-professionals.
It was only after I cut a professional career loose that I really began
to expand as a musician.

It's different for everyone.

[TD]

Post by Gerry

Post by Jonathan

Post by Gerry
I assume you're just ruminating on the topic in the generic, rather
that addressing my questions, since I concur with all of your thinking.

Yep, just ruminating on the topic in the generic.

I'd like to do that in a larger sense some time, though not with this
ill-chosen subject header.
Growing and expanding as a musician, as Caiola clearly did, whether you
play live gigs, or as in his case do session work, or whether you never
do either: it's all music.
Some are eager to quickly divide musicians/guitarists into professional
v. "wannabee", the stock statement of contempt for non-professionals.
It was only after I cut a professional career loose that I really began
to expand as a musician.
It's different for everyone.
--
Music is the best means we have of digesting time. -- W. H. Auden

"Some are eager to quickly divide musicians/guitarists into
professional
v. "wannabee", the stock statement of contempt for non-professionals"

Interesting statement. How do you justify that such people are, in the
first place, "eager" and in the second place automatically hold
"contempt for non-professionals?" I would only begin to pay attention
to such people, if there was good reason to bring up this dvide you
speak of. In the absense of good reason, I would call them "jerks."
About your thread heading, I agree with you that it is ill-worded, but
you worded it as if you were thinking out loud in the first place.
How do I see it that way? Because that was how it was worded. You say
that you *should have stated* about which are the better recordings to
listen too yet no one responded. So, therefore if there are no better
recordings than those that you deem poor or when Al was not fully
developed as a player, then he was a hack up untill that point and
may have been a hack after that point, because better recorded
examples may not exist? I am sure that there are recorded players out
there who think of unrecorded players as "wannabees." I wonder how
many of such people have good reason to call those unrecorded
professionals hacks compared to those who merely hold contempt for
unrecorded players. All in all, a good post, because you have given me
food for thought.

-TD

[charlieguitar]

Post by TD

Post by Gerry

Post by Jonathan

Post by Gerry
I assume you're just ruminating on the topic in the generic, rather
that addressing my questions, since I concur with all of your thinking.

Yep, just ruminating on the topic in the generic.

I'd like to do that in a larger sense some time, though not with this
ill-chosen subject header.
Growing and expanding as a musician, as Caiola clearly did, whether you
play live gigs, or as in his case do session work, or whether you never
do either: it's all music.
Some are eager to quickly divide musicians/guitarists into professional
v. "wannabee", the stock statement of contempt for non-professionals.
It was only after I cut a professional career loose that I really began
to expand as a musician.
It's different for everyone.
--
Music is the best means we have of digesting time. -- W. H. Auden

"Some are eager to quickly divide musicians/guitarists into
professional
v. "wannabee", the stock statement of contempt for non-professionals"
Interesting statement. How do you justify that such people are, in the
first place, "eager" and in the second place automatically hold
"contempt for non-professionals?" I would only begin to pay attention
to such people, if there was good reason to bring up this dvide you
speak of. In the absense of good reason, I would call them "jerks."
About your thread heading, I agree with you that it is ill-worded, but
you worded it as if you were thinking out loud in the first place.
How do I see it that way? Because that was how it was worded. You say
that you *should have stated* about which are the better recordings to
listen too yet no one responded. So, therefore if there are no better
recordings than those that you deem poor or when Al was not fully
developed as a player, then he was a hack up untill that point and
may have been a hack after that point, because better recorded
examples may not exist? I am sure that there are recorded players out
there who think of unrecorded players as "wannabees." I wonder how
many of such people have good reason to call those unrecorded
professionals hacks compared to those who merely hold contempt for
unrecorded players. All in all, a good post, because you have given me
food for thought.
-TD

It is Zen like in it's profundity:The music unheard falls ill upon my ears.
Charlie

[Greger Hoel]

On Wed, 01 Aug 2012 00:40:41 +0200, charlieguitar

Post by charlieguitar
It is Zen like in it's profundity:The music unheard falls ill upon my ears.

Where's the like button when you need it?

[i***@yahoo.com]

Anyone who has ever heard the sides Tony Mottola cut with Carl Kress would have to know what kind of wondeful guitarist Mottola was.

New Jersey sure was the capitol of great guitarists for a while there. Mottola was from my hometown, Caiola from Jersey City.

[van]

Post by i***@yahoo.com
Anyone who has ever heard the sides Tony Mottola cut with Carl Kress would have to know what kind of wondeful guitarist Mottola was.
http://youtu.be/oogT4IGvDR0
New Jersey sure was the capitol of great guitarists for a while there. Mottola was from my hometown, Caiola from Jersey City.

My father used to tell me that he loved listening to Mottola on the radio before TM was well known, when he was in some jazz group from NJ called the Blue Blazers (OSLT).
My first guitar teacher modeled himself on Wes, JS and TM.
Mottola would always incorporate some nice jazz subs in all of his arrangements, but he wouldn't improvise very much. I don't think he improvised on the Carl Kress (maybe on the slower sectin?)youtube track posted, but he could play the fuckin' shit out of the guitar. Their time is perfect on a fast, demanding number. I have that record, but thanks for posting it.